75 degree headtubes on dirt

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8/9/2015 1:25 AM

Now that 75 degree headtubes have been around a while and become basically the industry standard, I want to know how everyone feels about them on dirt jumps? I remember back in the day when 74 was the norm, and then transitioning to 74.5 not long after and it felt great. But I picked up my Mac frame last year and did try riding a little dirt in Cali before moving out here to AZ again, and I must say it felt really weird to me compared to my older 74.5 frame. I know it's a street oriented frame, and it may have been the shorter CS and longer TT as well, but now I find myself debating whether or not to go back. Another reason is I'm honestly finding it hard to really get into street/park riding because I've always ridden dirt since I was a kid. It's what I grew up doing and trails will always have my heart. Lol. Thoughts?

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8/9/2015 2:03 AM

Honestly half a degree and having 26mm offset forks doesn't make a noticeable change in my bike really . I've messed with dirt and its nothing different . Get a DJ bike if you want slack geo. !

But really I guess getting mellow forks and having a longer frame would probably even it out , I wouldn't stress it much unless you run a 75.5 HT and Primo Strand forks or something

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8/9/2015 2:44 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/9/2015 10:11 AM

75° headtubes are great for all around, but for dirt and bowl (where you go fast and steep) you want a stable front end.
I personnaly hate when my front end is too twitchy, that´s why I ride with a 33mm offset fork, a 50mm stem (at least) and a 2.4" tyre and a 75 headtube of course.

I had try a 30 mm fork of a friend on my bike (always been curious to try shorter offset) and by a general way it brings a more reactive direction, nothing too bad also nose 3's are a bit easier (i don't do real nose balance tricks but it should be good for that) but to try it fully I had ride the bowl, and this is there than we really feel the loss of stabily, than 3 fucking millimeters less brings and make things becomes scarier.

So starting by the fact steeper headtube angle makes the same things as shorter fork offset, to add stabily to your bike you can go for a longer fork offset (at least 32mm), a longer stem (46/48 feels horrible 50 and more feels good) and even if it´s not just a part, you can go for a longer frame, 21.5" feels awesome (I don't know your height but go for longer than usual).
Still on the frame, chainstays is really important, but it´s more personnal preference, don't go too short 13.5" and more is good. I personnaly ride 13.5" but i don't like to ride neither shorter or longer or it fuck up my riding.

Hope this could help you, now you still can ride dirt with a 75.5 angle, an 15mm fork with a 20" toptube and a 46mm stem but... It will feels horrible.

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8/9/2015 4:40 AM

75 is good for jumps and air , I ride 75 with 13 mm offset forks and I mainly ride transitions these days , it sends nosedive 360s so nice

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8/9/2015 8:13 AM

I run long and slack stuff. I can't go from riding mountain bikes to a short twitchy frame and vice versa.

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8/9/2015 8:39 AM

biggybuggy wrote:

I run long and slack stuff. I can't go from riding mountain bikes to a short twitchy frame and vice versa.

I can.

BUT....

Dont do it... Feels horrible... Or rather, feels great! Sure, there are some jumps to get passed on before you get to grips again, but the feel is so...twitchy and rapid! Thats why I love BMXes! They just feel sooooo flickable!

But... I'll get a 21.5 frame anyday, the bike feels cramped.

Is there an article or sumthink to explain the fork offset thing?

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8/9/2015 8:49 AM

Depends on your style mostly. Myself I just like to flow. I don't really care about tricks that much just going fast and high haha. I run a 74.5 ht, 13.7cs and 21.25 tt. Anything else feels too squirrely to me.

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8/9/2015 10:28 AM

Skylight wrote:

I can.

BUT....

Dont do it... Feels horrible... Or rather, feels great! Sure, there are some jumps to get passed on before you get to grips again, but the feel is so...twitchy and rapid! Thats why I love BMXes! They just feel sooooo flickable!

But... I'll get a 21.5 frame anyday, the bike feels cramped.

Is there an article or sumthink to explain the fork offset thing?

For the fork offset.

If you go for a classic offset (like 32 / 33mm) you got a nice stable and safe direction, which is cool for riding fast, or simply cruising the streets if you like a mellow handling.

If you go for shorter (28 / 25 or even 13mm) it will be easier to go over the bar (because more bodyweight over the axle), so all kind of nose stuffs becomes easier, and the handling is more reactive.
But that ease to get over the bar brings an unsafe feeling while riding a bowl.

Also fork offset and headtube angles makes the same things to your bike :
bike A : 75° headtube; 33mm fork
bike B : 74.5° headtube; 25mm fork
Same feeling on the handling.

But it looks like I repeat myself, read my post upper in this thread.



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8/9/2015 11:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/9/2015 12:37 PM

Yeah maybe it was just because I wasn't used to it. I honestly still don't ride enough these days to get fully used to the new frame, but I've been trying to get my determination back lately, but that's been proving difficult in average 110 weather. Lol. Here's the setup I had and what I went to:

Fit Flow 20.75tt, 74.5ht, 14cs, 11.8bb, 8.5"so, 71st w/ odyssey pro dirts 32mm, blitz fl stem 48mm with one 1/4" spacer, 8" shadow bars and primo dirt monster 2.20, then I got the Fit Mac which is 21.125tt, 75ht, 13.5cs is where it's set, 11.6bb, 9"st, 71st with all the same parts. That was what I had while on dirt, but haven't ridden it since because I moved a couple months after and now all I have is street and park(the local trails need quite a bit of work, once again difficult by yourself in 110+ weather, also solid dirt with no water source as they're in a big field in the desert). I'm still running all the same parts but recently replaced the stem and bars as the other stem cracked and bars were bent, so now I have a Fit BF tl 51mm and Shadow Vultus 9", so that huge transition is definitely taking some getting used to as well, as I've ridden 20.75/74.5 with an fl stem and 8" bars for almost 14 years. Lol. It just felt super twitchy to me at the trails(and does now in bowls as well) but I think I may have just changed too much too quickly honestly. The bigger bars and higher stem really helped with my back pain for sure, and with the longer tt/ht angle, I was able to bring the bar position back to almost straight with the forks instead of straight up Chicago style like I've always had them. Manuals seem a million times easier and I literally loop out about half the time now, spins are way easier now too which I've always had problems with, and the lower bb/higher standover makes me feel up in it rather than on top of it which I really like, so there are some positives.

And yeah I agree with you Ricked. I don't care much for tricks either honestly. Just like flowing around trails and parks, maybe do a grind or two and a couple older air tricks here and there, but definitely don't show off or anything cuz I'm not very good tbh. Lol. But I come from a racing and old school dirt background, so park and street tech aren't exactly my favorite way to ride and I've never really made an attempt to get good at them

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8/9/2015 11:59 AM

Tons of dudes ride 75* HTA on dirt and bowls and what not. And not just technical dudes either. Dugan, Hawk, and Geoff Slattery (all dudes regarded as being super flowy) all ride 75 degree headtubes. It's all just a matter of preference.

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8/9/2015 12:09 PM

-Havok- wrote:

Yeah maybe it was just because I wasn't used to it. I honestly still don't ride enough these days to get fully used to the new frame, but I've been trying to get my determination back lately, but that's been proving difficult in average 110 weather. Lol. Here's the setup I had and what I went to:

Fit Flow 20.75tt, 74.5ht, 14cs, 11.8bb, 8.5"so, 71st w/ odyssey pro dirts 32mm, blitz fl stem 48mm with one 1/4" spacer, 8" shadow bars and primo dirt monster 2.20, then I got the Fit Mac which is 21.125tt, 75ht, 13.5cs is where it's set, 11.6bb, 9"st, 71st with all the same parts. That was what I had while on dirt, but haven't ridden it since because I moved a couple months after and now all I have is street and park(the local trails need quite a bit of work, once again difficult by yourself in 110+ weather, also solid dirt with no water source as they're in a big field in the desert). I'm still running all the same parts but recently replaced the stem and bars as the other stem cracked and bars were bent, so now I have a Fit BF tl 51mm and Shadow Vultus 9", so that huge transition is definitely taking some getting used to as well, as I've ridden 20.75/74.5 with an fl stem and 8" bars for almost 14 years. Lol. It just felt super twitchy to me at the trails(and does now in bowls as well) but I think I may have just changed too much too quickly honestly. The bigger bars and higher stem really helped with my back pain for sure, and with the longer tt/ht angle, I was able to bring the bar position back to almost straight with the forks instead of straight up Chicago style like I've always had them. Manuals seem a million times easier and I literally loop out about half the time now, spins are way easier now too which I've always had problems with, and the lower bb/higher standover makes me feel up in it rather than on top of it which I really like, so there are some positives.

And yeah I agree with you Ricked. I don't care much for tricks either honestly. Just like flowing around trails and parks, maybe do a grind or two and a couple older air tricks here and there, but definitely don't show off or anything cuz I'm not very good tbh. Lol. But I come from a racing and old school dirt background, so park and street tech aren't exactly my favorite way to ride and I've never really made an attempt to get good at them

Looks like a good setup evolution, you'll get used to it soon (and for the better !)
If you keep looping out on manuals, try to play with spacers to lower your bar a little bit because a few millimeters can make a big difference to fnd the perfect balance point on manuals.
Also you had raised your bar a lot at once, with the high rise stem and the bigger 9" bar from your 8" (1" is huge for bars... for frames also, and... anything on the bike tho ).

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8/9/2015 12:33 PM

Francky wrote:

Looks like a good setup evolution, you'll get used to it soon (and for the better !)
If you keep looping out on manuals, try to play with spacers to lower your bar a little bit because a few millimeters can make a big difference to fnd the perfect balance point on manuals.
Also you had raised your bar a lot at once, with the high rise stem and the bigger 9" bar from your 8" (1" is huge for bars... for frames also, and... anything on the bike tho ).

Yeah that's what I was hoping for. I had to get something bigger as I'm 5'10" and the old setup was killing my back which already has problems. The only spacer I have is the 1/4" one because the previous owner of the forks cut the steer tube that low. I have been debating whether to switch it to above the stem tho now that I have a top load to clear the TT. That or flip the stem, but it probably wouldn't clear the TT anyways even with the spacer, and personally I don't trust a TL stem upside down regardless of who made it. Lol. And yeah I knew it was going to be a huge jump for the bar/stem combo(almost 2" of difference overall), but when I met up with the guy to get the stem, he said he had bars too and I couldn't really pass up the deal.

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8/9/2015 3:10 PM

Scotty Cranmer rides 76 degree head tube and he can blast bowls higher than most

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8/9/2015 3:50 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/9/2015 3:55 PM

-Havok- wrote:

Yeah that's what I was hoping for. I had to get something bigger as I'm 5'10" and the old setup was killing my back which already has problems. The only spacer I have is the 1/4" one because the previous owner of the forks cut the steer tube that low. I have been debating whether to switch it to above the stem tho now that I have a top load to clear the TT. That or flip the stem, but it probably wouldn't clear the TT anyways even with the spacer, and personally I don't trust a TL stem upside down regardless of who made it. Lol. And yeah I knew it was going to be a huge jump for the bar/stem combo(almost 2" of difference overall), but when I met up with the guy to get the stem, he said he had bars too and I couldn't really pass up the deal.

I wasn't really thinking to raise the bar even more after a such big change (2" !!) but the short steerer tube is not a problem to put the bar lower, so you can try to remove your single spacer to put it over the stem as you said, if it's not perfect you can buy some tiny 2 mm spacers to make a more precise setting.
And yeah, don't flip your stem, toploads are weak, flipped.

On my bike, I run a 8.75" with a 33mm rise topload stem and 7 mm of spacers (so approximatly the same bar height as you but I'm much tall (6'1)) and if pull out the 5mm one, I'm so fucking low, my back hurts... but if I add one (so 12mm)
my manuals loopout so easily !
And the 2 mm spacer is because I'm really tiny with bar height, too low with 5mm, too high with 10, pefect with 7 !

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8/9/2015 3:56 PM

It's completely fine. Don't be a bitch. haha I say you can relax more sort of. It makes it easier to kinda dive into the next transition! Which is sick. But you don't get that same feel with the 74.5 and 25mm forks in the air. It's kinda harder to explain.

74.5 is more relaxed in the air but harder to nose stuff in but once you land it's the same feel with 25mm forks. So i prefer 75 really, or steeper even. You can most definitely shred with 75 degrees. Don't freak out, all geo can be gotten used to but some just rides nicer for others!

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8/9/2015 5:47 PM

Francky wrote:

I wasn't really thinking to raise the bar even more after a such big change (2" !!) but the short steerer tube is not a problem to put the bar lower, so you can try to remove your single spacer to put it over the stem as you said, if it's not perfect you can buy some tiny 2 mm spacers to make a more precise setting.
And yeah, don't flip your stem, toploads are weak, flipped.

On my bike, I run a 8.75" with a 33mm rise topload stem and 7 mm of spacers (so approximatly the same bar height as you but I'm much tall (6'1)) and if pull out the 5mm one, I'm so fucking low, my back hurts... but if I add one (so 12mm)
my manuals loopout so easily !
And the 2 mm spacer is because I'm really tiny with bar height, too low with 5mm, too high with 10, pefect with 7 !

Yeah I get what you're saying. I actually had a couple of them but had to ditch them when I got these forks. The steerer tube isn't even all the way thru the stem with the 1/4" spacer, but it's so close it gives me just enough room to adjust it. And no I meant the difference from my old stem/bar setup to my new one was almost a 2" difference. The rise on the fl stem was only somewhere around 8 or 9mm, where as this one's 28.6mm w/ 1" bigger bars as well, so like 1 5/8"-ish. I also only have the very short FSA headset cap too cuz I like my front end to look almost flush. Another reason why I wanted to flip the spacer too. Now I just hate my ugly giant hex compression bolt! laughing Does anyone make nicer ones for the older style Odyssey forks?

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8/9/2015 5:55 PM

MaximusBikes wrote:

It's completely fine. Don't be a bitch. haha I say you can relax more sort of. It makes it easier to kinda dive into the next transition! Which is sick. But you don't get that same feel with the 74.5 and 25mm forks in the air. It's kinda harder to explain.

74.5 is more relaxed in the air but harder to nose stuff in but once you land it's the same feel with 25mm forks. So i prefer 75 really, or steeper even. You can most definitely shred with 75 degrees. Don't freak out, all geo can be gotten used to but some just rides nicer for others!

Haha yeah I know. I'm trying! Like I said, I went from my setup I've been riding over a decade to 3 different sized very important parts at basically the same time. Just feels weird. And I don't know about 25mm forks as I've never ridden them as far as I know. Maybe on one of my past older bikes, but I didn't know much about geo as a kid other than bar height

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8/9/2015 6:48 PM

eskimojay wrote:

Scotty Cranmer rides 76 degree head tube and he can blast bowls higher than most

Cranmer isn't human.

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8/10/2015 7:09 AM

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

Honestly half a degree and having 26mm offset forks doesn't make a noticeable change in my bike really . I've messed with dirt and its nothing different . Get a DJ bike if you want slack geo. !

But really I guess getting mellow forks and having a longer frame would probably even it out , I wouldn't stress it much unless you run a 75.5 HT and Primo Strand forks or something

I wouldn't stress it anyway, and just ride the dirt with what I have.

I have 75.5 and run an Odyssey Flatland fork with like 11-13 mm offset. I ride whatever. If you are used to your bike, don't worrk about it.

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8/10/2015 10:36 AM

i very much prefer 74.5 and i ride mostly street. i can't imagine riding a 75.5 sick
i am a fish out of water on dirt tho. any time i go in the air i feel like i am going to die lol.

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8/10/2015 11:02 AM

I rode dirt yesterday and I have a 75.5 ht angle with 25mm forks. It's a matter of preference really. I think that once you get comfortable on your bike everything will feel the same

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8/10/2015 11:44 AM

Smaller rear tire, larger front tire will change that half a degree you seem concerned about.

What do you guys consider "dirt"?

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