F/C as cassette

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3/1/2017 4:06 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/1/2017 4:06 PM

Hey people, can anyone help me with this?

One of the reasons why it's possible to notice how freecoasters offer higher speeds than cassettes (IMHO), is that once we stop pedaling, a cassette still has the paws hitting and creating friction (the famous 'bzzzzzz' we hear), and so helping making the bike go slower a little bit quicker, whereas once we stop pedaling on a freecoaster, there is absolutely nothing creating this friction, get it?

So, I was wondering if I could set the gap on a freecoaster to be as close to a cassette as possible and actually use it as a cassette, backpedaling on fakies and all, when riding park or whatever.

Will the freecaster handle the pressure? Or will it explode fast?

I don't mind the extra weight of F/Cs, and besides, with quick-adjustments F/Cs like odyssey's, I could set the gap to the very minimum one day (at the trails for ex.), and reset it to a larger street gap later, if I want to ride street.

I only have doubts if a F/C with KHE internals can handle the 'cassette' mode...

thanks!

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3/1/2017 4:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/1/2017 4:21 PM

Pawls don't create that much friction, try putting a light oil on your pawls. You should be able to make your cassette effectively frictionless.

As long as you can stack up enough spacers, it'd work. There should be no weirdness like extra "pressure", all you'd be doing is changing how far the crank moves before engagement. The driveside bearing would still crush over time just like every other coaster.

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3/1/2017 4:22 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/1/2017 4:23 PM

I mean, you pretty much answered it here. If you get the Clutch, adjustment is right there. You can set minimum slack for "cassette" mode and adjust it later for street. Realistically speaking, though, the difference in speed is nearly nonexistent with proper working internals and bearings for coasters and cassettes alike.

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3/1/2017 5:14 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/1/2017 5:14 PM

the only place i notice the speed difference is goin downhill ill fly past my friend thats probably around 20 pounds lighter than me even while hes pedaling.cruising on flat theres no real difference. also remember if you plan to use pedal pressure with your free coaster its not the best for it id say just stick with a cassette and put in some light grease if you feel that much drag

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3/1/2017 5:34 PM

Have you ever actually ridden a coaster? Personal experience with the few I have had tells me they tend to have more friction than the cassettes I have run.

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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

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3/1/2017 6:25 PM

I have indeed ridden a coaster and every time it seemed to me that I could go faster on a coaster due to the lack of friction.

And I take good care of my coaster -and- my cassette. I mean It's sooo boring but there's no escape from manteinance, so I do it the best I can.

As for pressure, I don't plan on doing brakeless tiretaps, or 'cheating' on manuals, the pressure I was referring to was when pedaling full speed for a gap or some jump at the skatepark.

I guess the feeling of going faster on a coaster is kinda like when riding with or w/o brakes. I ride brakes but I've also ridden brakeless and it always felt like I was faster when brakeless, you know? Mind games maybe...

I really believe I can go faster on a coaster cause the bearings are much bigger, and it's better to have one big bearing than two small ones.

Maybe that's the solution, make a cassette with bigger bearings, but not huge so they're heavy. I'm sure there's a sweet balance between speed and weight.

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3/1/2017 7:58 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/1/2017 8:00 PM

Gotta agree with dave as to the feeling of more friction with a coaster.

My answer is just stick with a cassette. There will likely not be a cassette made to solve this issue since there's no huge issue to begin with. Take racers for example. Ain't no cassette slowing them down, and they'd never ride a coaster, even though they have one huge bearing. Two bearings per wheel is just the way to go for speed. I realize that you aren't a racer, but same concept.

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3/2/2017 12:24 AM

Profile z coaster?

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3/2/2017 12:49 PM

No, I've only ridden KHE. Thinking about it, maybe the z coaster is the solution. It has large bearings, when pedaling it engages like a cassette, and when not pedaling, it rolls like a coaster. The only problem is its price. But it's Profile, and they really make seriously awesome parts.

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3/2/2017 4:15 PM

Otabmx wrote:

I have indeed ridden a coaster and every time it seemed to me that I could go faster on a coaster due to the lack of friction.

And I take good care of my coaster -and- my cassette. I mean It's sooo boring but there's no escape from manteinance, so I do it the best I can.

As for pressure, I don't plan on doing brakeless tiretaps, or 'cheating' on manuals, the pressure I was referring to was when pedaling full speed for a gap or some jump at the skatepark.

I guess the feeling of going faster on a coaster is kinda like when riding with or w/o brakes. I ride brakes but I've also ridden brakeless and it always felt like I was faster when brakeless, you know? Mind games maybe...

I really believe I can go faster on a coaster cause the bearings are much bigger, and it's better to have one big bearing than two small ones.

Maybe that's the solution, make a cassette with bigger bearings, but not huge so they're heavy. I'm sure there's a sweet balance between speed and weight.

As you said it, its all "mind games" Riding the same bike with or without brakes is not going to make any difference at all in speed. If pawls made a difference in speed, then you wouldnt have elite hubs which had 6, over the common 3 and 4.

Perhaps the issues with others bikes overall, is they have a better hub(freecoaster, cassette or not).

You say that you take care of your coaster, so if you do really have one, why arent you trying it outinstead of asking?

The Zcoaster when not pedaling acts a cassettes as well unless you disengage it. And if youre talking about setting a coaster up with minimal slack, especially on a Z, your coaster range with be fairly non-existing making the idea useless and equal to a cassette .

If youre concerned with speed and not doing what freecoasters are made for, perhaps you should be looking at race hubs instead

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3/2/2017 5:46 PM

Or you could look at a larger sprocket up front?

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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

"BIKES!" -Tom Segura

3/2/2017 8:41 PM

chiefndaily wrote:

Profile z coaster?

This. Get the Z coaster if you're willing to spend the money.

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3/2/2017 9:22 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/2/2017 9:24 PM

If free coasters were faster racers would be using them. My cassette doesn't use any bearings at all in the driver. Not sure if that's any better either.

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3/2/2017 11:27 PM

The Horror Contact wrote:

As you said it, its all "mind games" Riding the same bike with or without brakes is not going to make any difference at all in speed. If pawls made a difference in speed, then you wouldnt have elite hubs which had 6, over the common 3 and 4.

Perhaps the issues with others bikes overall, is they have a better hub(freecoaster, cassette or not).

You say that you take care of your coaster, so if you do really have one, why arent you trying it outinstead of asking?

The Zcoaster when not pedaling acts a cassettes as well unless you disengage it. And if youre talking about setting a coaster up with minimal slack, especially on a Z, your coaster range with be fairly non-existing making the idea useless and equal to a cassette .

If youre concerned with speed and not doing what freecoasters are made for, perhaps you should be looking at race hubs instead

Elite hubs have more paws for safety reasons, so they can withstand the highest pressures when pedaling full speed.

That's why racing hubs also have more paws, and that's why they don't use coasters.

If racers were to try them, they would explode a hub on each race! Coasters can handle a guy pedaling fast to gap something but not 30 to 40 seconds of nonstop full speed pedaling. Besides coasters are heavier...

And I ride my coaster from time to time, I'm far from being rich but I was able to actually build two identical wheels, one cassette, one F/C. i did that before those convertible hubs came along...

I was just wondering if anybody has ever tried this 'minimum gap coaster as a cassette' craziness I've come up with hahaha!

I mostly ride parks, jumps and pools, so I prefer going fast over tricks. Too bad Odyssey/Gsport stopped making those Ratchet hubs, they look like they're fast since they had large bearings...

dave lawrence - I already ride 33x11... I don't really like tiny gearing like 25x9 or even worse, 22 or 23x8, to me something around 30t front and 10 or 11 in the back is perfect balance between size, weight and durability.

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3/3/2017 12:00 AM

I read like half this thread and my mind went full retard . Cassette frictionless , 1 big bearing , racing , pedal pressure , this thread is everywhere lmao

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3/3/2017 2:17 AM

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

I read like half this thread and my mind went full retard . Cassette frictionless , 1 big bearing , racing , pedal pressure , this thread is everywhere lmao

This. I don't really get what the point of this is. If you plan on doing loads of fakie tricks, get a freecoaster, if you want fast engagement, get a cassette. There's not really any middle ground.

Other than the z coaster, you'll ruin a freecoaster by using too much pedal pressure

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3/3/2017 12:38 PM

Eastern's Birectional had 6 pawls.

And was LHD/RHD compatible.

It wasn't "for safety" it was for more engagement points which means less slack. Most Cassettes are 3-4 and a lot are basically a badged Joytech hub.

You can try what you want, but it seems silly to me. Either get a switchable hub, or build up a wheel for each.

Better yet, do what most do and ride what you have for each scenario. You will get used to pedal pressure when you have it, then go to none and have to relearn it. Seems like a constant "I am not used to this bike" feeling to a certain extent.


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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

"BIKES!" -Tom Segura

3/3/2017 1:34 PM

In the beginning of bmx and for a long time, people rode freewheels, and even the good ones had only 2 paws. So if just one should brake, there was only one left to handle all the pedalling and to avoid crushing your teeth on the handlebar. When cassettes arrived they decided to add paws to end this possibility completely, so there is a safety issue. Only after that the industry paid more attention to this and studied how more paws or different engagements could benefit the riders.

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3/3/2017 3:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/3/2017 5:26 PM

Seeing as this conversation has still gone nowhere, scrap this idea, grease the heck out of your cassette hub, and call it a day.

Like everyone said before, there is no clear middle ground. You either ride a cassette to ride with pressure and backpedal, or you run a coaster to disengage the cranks and deal with slack. Even considering the Z-Coaster, there is still no perfect mix of the cassette and coaster. The Z-Coaster simply combines the two as separate entities, not a fluid mix of both. You're either riding in cassette mode then switch to coaster mode with no benefit of the cassette and vice-versa. You don't get this "cassette mode with slight coaster" or anything like that. Just one of the two at a time.

Remember, "mind games." That is all.

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Scooter kid trying to ride BMX.
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3/3/2017 4:35 PM

readybmxer wrote:

Seeing as this conversation has still gone nowhere, scrap this idea, grease the heck out of your cassette hub, and call it a day.

Like everyone said before, there is no clear middle ground. You either ride a cassette to ride with pressure and backpedal, or you run a coaster to disengage the cranks and deal with slack. Even considering the Z-Coaster, there is still no perfect mix of the cassette and coaster. The Z-Coaster simply combines the two as separate entities, not a fluid mix of both. You're either riding in cassette mode then switch to coaster mode with no benefit of the cassette and vice-versa. You don't get this "cassette mode with slight coaster" or anything like that. Just one of the two at a time.

Remember, "mind games." That is all.

This.

With good bearings greased with a light grease and a light oil on your pawls, you can make a cassette hub pretty much frictionless. Pawls don't make that much drag with the exception of cassettes like the eclat dynamic, they suck.

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My Sunday Soundwave V3 Build
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"You can't educate pork"
- grumpySteve

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!""
- Hunter S. Thompson

3/3/2017 10:04 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/3/2017 10:04 PM

readybmxer wrote:

Seeing as this conversation has still gone nowhere, scrap this idea, grease the heck out of your cassette hub, and call it a day.

Like everyone said before, there is no clear middle ground. You either ride a cassette to ride with pressure and backpedal, or you run a coaster to disengage the cranks and deal with slack. Even considering the Z-Coaster, there is still no perfect mix of the cassette and coaster. The Z-Coaster simply combines the two as separate entities, not a fluid mix of both. You're either riding in cassette mode then switch to coaster mode with no benefit of the cassette and vice-versa. You don't get this "cassette mode with slight coaster" or anything like that. Just one of the two at a time.

Remember, "mind games." That is all.

I wouldn't say the Z coaster combines the two separately, since one of the thing they say is something like 'the Z coaster has the best of both worlds, the responsive engagement of a cassette and the ability to 'freecoast' when going fakie' so it is kind of both.things at the same time.

I just wish their price were lower so I could buy one!

And the reason I started this post is because I made a little experiment.

Like I said, I have two identical wheels, one with a KHE F/C, the other with a cassette.

One day I had my bike upside down and, with the wheel completely stopped, I gave the cranks a full 360º spin with the cassette wheel first, and then with the F/C, and the cassette was pretty good but F/C rolled forever!

Now that I looked into the Z coaster, it is exactly what I was looking for, a coaster with the cassette engagement.

I was just wondering if I could set the gap to a minimum so I could take advantage of the frictionless of a F/C while pumping ramps or even pedaling full speed to a gap or whatever.

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3/3/2017 10:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/6/2017 6:39 PM

Otabmx wrote:

I wouldn't say the Z coaster combines the two separately, since one of the thing they say is something like 'the Z coaster has the best of both worlds, the responsive engagement of a cassette and the ability to 'freecoast' when going fakie' so it is kind of both.things at the same time.

I just wish their price were lower so I could buy one!

And the reason I started this post is because I made a little experiment.

Like I said, I have two identical wheels, one with a KHE F/C, the other with a cassette.

One day I had my bike upside down and, with the wheel completely stopped, I gave the cranks a full 360º spin with the cassette wheel first, and then with the F/C, and the cassette was pretty good but F/C rolled forever!

Now that I looked into the Z coaster, it is exactly what I was looking for, a coaster with the cassette engagement.

I was just wondering if I could set the gap to a minimum so I could take advantage of the frictionless of a F/C while pumping ramps or even pedaling full speed to a gap or whatever.

It's more separate than you think. I've ridden a Z-Coaster for a few days before. Prior to this, I had been strictly cassette. Today, I have the same as you, one freecoaster wheel, and one cassette wheel. I rarely run the coaster wheel so I have speed, not slack.

Here's what I meant...

With the Z-Coaster, making the minimal slack adjustment on the coaster changes nothing in the cassette mode. Only the coaster is now minimal slack. It's a common misconception of how the Z-Coaster works. Here's how it works: In cassette mode, you just backpedal roughly 1/4 a crank for coaster mode. To stay in coaster mode, you must not pedal forwards because ANY forwards pedal means you're back into cassette mode, therefore defeating the purpose of having those ultra-fast bearings for coaster mode. When riding, your feet naturally move forwards at some points as you will be quick to discover when, all of a sudden, you hear cassette pawns clicking beneath you when you had just changed to coaster mode moments before this. Unless you're willing to ride with a forwards pedal-backcrank-forwards pedal-backcrank only to achieve max speed, you'll slow yourself down in the process.

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3/4/2017 4:37 PM

Yeah that sounds complicated. By the time I figure it out, the gap or whatever will be right in front of me hahaha

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3/4/2017 8:42 PM

Otabmx wrote:

Yeah that sounds complicated. By the time I figure it out, the gap or whatever will be right in front of me hahaha

Again, I strongly recommend you'd stick with cassette. You just can't beat the instant engagement and pressure when needed. smile

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Scooter kid trying to ride BMX.
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3/5/2017 6:45 PM

I work in a shop and it amazes me how much a flat tire can confuse someone. "You know my tire is flat but I'm not sure if my tire is flat because my tire has some air but the tire itself is totally flat so I'm not sure if I have a flat tire or not not the tire has no air in it so it might be flat so I'm not sure." Sounds like the exact same thing but with a cassette and freecoaster. "I want a free coaster but I want it to feel like a cassette and I still want to pedal backwards but I don't want to pedal backwards either so I want a freecoaster but it has to have no slack so I can pedal backwards sometimes." You should stick with your cassette hub

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3/5/2017 10:56 PM

I just wondered if I could have a cassette that, when you stop pelading, there would be no friction at all, like a freecoaster.

Like this: when you pedal, cassette engagement, no slack.

When you stop pedalling, the paws would immediately retract, just like the Z coaster, but without having to backpedal for it to happen.

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3/6/2017 3:09 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/6/2017 11:21 AM

Otabmx wrote:

I just wondered if I could have a cassette that, when you stop pelading, there would be no friction at all, like a freecoaster.

Like this: when you pedal, cassette engagement, no slack.

When you stop pedalling, the paws would immediately retract, just like the Z coaster, but without having to backpedal for it to happen.

I think you just need a great cassette hub.

About the Z coaster, yes you need to backpedal to put it in freecoaster mode, just like a real coaster.
Before a 180 gap you don't stop pedaling when your feet are leveled, you push further then do a quarter crank back to disengage the hub and get you feet leveled again, if not... the freecoaster will engage and kick you out of the bike.

Also coaster/cassettes are made to handle pedal pressure, on a real coaster, absolutely not made for pedal pressure tricks, you'll strip the clutch in no time by using it as a cassette (and even might blow up the hub shell).

A z coaster with a tiny slack wouldn't be that great for you because, imagine yourself carving in coaster mode for speed, then want to do a tailtap on top of a quarter, the engagement will be far from instantly and it'll probably feel weird.

About that drag you so much complain about, I get it, I ride a coaster, there's no resistance and I like it, plus I love being silent. But except with a shitty hub, cassette rolls just fine, the only difference beside the noise is that super tiny drag I can feel during low speed manuals, but it makes no speed difference for just carving around (BSD pro cassette if that matters).

And if you want to improve speed (as far as this thread goes nowhere and everywhere) look to your tyres.
I don't know what you ride, but a thin ~2" tyre in the back to lower rolling resistance coupled with a big 2.4" up front to improve traction makes magic.

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3/6/2017 6:09 AM

Otabmx wrote:

I just wondered if I could have a cassette that, when you stop pelading, there would be no friction at all, like a freecoaster.

Like this: when you pedal, cassette engagement, no slack.

When you stop pedalling, the paws would immediately retract, just like the Z coaster, but without having to backpedal for it to happen.

Only option for something like this is a Blind hub, However, good luck finding working thats in perfect working order.

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REFS-

Vital- KyMike, FEDEXdoobie, adrenalinebmx ,MaximusBikes
Bmx-forum-Tumitama, archerbiker9(2x), mrsanchezz, nguyenna, JoeyBones, fast-and-loose and many others
Also multiple sales on global-flat.com and PinkBike. Theres to many to list all. Most sales are done through texting I havent been able to keep track of who is who.

3/6/2017 1:59 PM

The Horror Contact wrote:

Only option for something like this is a Blind hub, However, good luck finding working thats in perfect working order.

There's still plenty slack. I've had my Blind hub for a long time and I've ridden it without a band at times and there's still a good 1/5 slack. Sure, it has the engagement like a cassette, but all coasters do when they're engaged anyways.

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Scooter kid trying to ride BMX.
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3/6/2017 2:15 PM

Otabmx wrote:

I just wondered if I could have a cassette that, when you stop pelading, there would be no friction at all, like a freecoaster.

Like this: when you pedal, cassette engagement, no slack.

When you stop pedalling, the paws would immediately retract, just like the Z coaster, but without having to backpedal for it to happen.

The Horror Contact wrote:

Only option for something like this is a Blind hub, However, good luck finding working thats in perfect working order.

readybmxer wrote:

There's still plenty slack. I've had my Blind hub for a long time and I've ridden it without a band at times and there's still a good 1/5 slack. Sure, it has the engagement like a cassette, but all coasters do when they're engaged anyways.

Agreed, I only mention the Blind since I believe its the only hub where the pawls retract when you stop pedaling. I know another company copied this design but, I forget who. To bad Eclat never completed the updated version, hub had potential

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REFS-

Vital- KyMike, FEDEXdoobie, adrenalinebmx ,MaximusBikes
Bmx-forum-Tumitama, archerbiker9(2x), mrsanchezz, nguyenna, JoeyBones, fast-and-loose and many others
Also multiple sales on global-flat.com and PinkBike. Theres to many to list all. Most sales are done through texting I havent been able to keep track of who is who.