Haro sued over website accessibility

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2/4/2020 8:13 AM

Has anyone read the story about the settlement? What are your thoughts?

Is the ADA overreaching?

Was the plaintiff legitimately affected or was it a cash grab?


Link to story here.

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2/4/2020 8:18 AM

They should be sued for making that gay master bike with that ugly ass bash guard too

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2/4/2020 8:18 AM

Cash grab. It's a pretty normal website.

What are they supposed to do, change all the text to braille? Ridiculous.

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2/4/2020 9:07 AM

p1p1092 wrote:

Cash grab. It's a pretty normal website.

What are they supposed to do, change all the text to braille? Ridiculous.

It's a subsidiary website, not their main. The issue is that, according to the Americans with disabilities act guidelines, all links have to have a description that a text-to-word device can read so that blind people know where the link is taking them. Without that description embedded, they are discriminating.


It's hard to even play the devil's advocate here. Total cash grab by a group of lazy fucks.

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2/4/2020 9:08 AM

eskimojay wrote:

They should be sued for making that gay master bike with that ugly ass bash guard too

Agreed. I threw up in my mouth when I first saw that frame on Albe's

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2/4/2020 12:27 PM

This is so fucking stupid.

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2/4/2020 12:29 PM

Yes judge the way he looked at me made me fear for my life I really thought those were going to be my last minutes alive, he was so intimating as he was ordering that chocmint icecream. I'll never be the same. Oyvey.

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2/4/2020 12:47 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/4/2020 12:54 PM

Ooo finally something I can comment on..

So basically, I'm a web-dev by trade, and my previous company got a similar suit, here's my thoughts:

First off, I try to never ignore someone's complaints around accessibility of a website. The handicapped, disabled and people with accessibility concerns have it hard enough, and still generally have to fight for rights. I've done testing on the accessibility machines they use and trust me, that life is rough, i totally understand why people would be mad if a website doesn't have things in place to make it usable.

So basically, for starters, it does list that the man filing has 4 other cases open, which does appear cash-grabby, however, think of how many sites you use daily. Now think about how annoying it is if the site is broken (I remember plenty of threads about vital going down, same with twitter, fb, etc.). Now that you have a measurement for how it feels, imaging a handful of the websites you go to, just not working with no other solution (and never working for you). That's what it's like to need accessibility devices/

Looking at his other cases, it looks like they were against a vaping website, and another vaping material site, so it's not out of the realm to see this guy as an actual customer who is mad he can't use the web as anyone else could. You (not anyone in particular) in general need to keep this in the back of your mind and build empathy for these lifestyles, as they aren't a choice. Now with that out of the way, let's talk about the ADA and web-accessibility.

---------------

The ADA, as well has plenty of other companies have fairly simple tools to create, check and confirm that you are within a certain level of compliance. That being said, that level changes based on whether you're a private, public, worldwide, fortune500, government agency, etc. It's also up to you to make sure you're customers can use your website (that's just good customer service).

Some things the ADA will look for when checking for accessibility are related to navigation, color contrast, ease of use, etc
- Being able to tab through
- Allowing a screenreader to read things accordingly
- Allowing screen readers to separate titles by importance
- Color contrast for those with deficiencies in sight
- Links that 404
- Alt and robot text for readers
- Jumbled navigations
- Content hidden off screen

And a ton more, it's actually a pretty extensive list, a lot of stuff that you wouldn't even think as useful, but mean the difference someone being impaired and being able to use the site in full.

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My thoughts on this, is that things happen. I think suing for "damages" is a little weird, perhaps just getting the ADA on them is sufficient enough. That is unless, they website was so hard to use that he ordered something he didn't expect, then Haro should refund them. I think how Haro responds will either smooth the case, or disrupt it more.

1. If they admit fault, take the slap, take the fine, they'll be able to move on and fix their website
2. If they dig their heels, then they will spin a rhetoric of not being allies to people with disabilities.

Joe already said he's committed to fixing the issues, which is good, but updating sites for accessibility can literally be a fulltime job. You need a strategy so the website is usable for everyone, but also doesn't look ridiculous to non-impaired users. It's a tough balance, but a ton of companies find it, and I'm sure they can as well.


TL:DR:

Don't automatically assume ill-intent for people who just want to use the web like non-disabled folks. Hopefully Haro can understand the importance of this, get what needs fixed, and move on.

As stated in the article, I also am unsure of the damages he is claiming, and am always on the side of alerting a company, far before bringing legal in. But I'm also able-bodied so I don't know much else to relate to how bad that could be, aside from my testing with assistive devices.

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Straight Simpin'

2/4/2020 12:51 PM

eskimojay wrote:

They should be sued for making that gay master bike with that ugly ass bash guard too

pretty much. especially for the $1500 price tag

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fack off

2/11/2020 5:32 AM

I find it ironic a blind man is suing a bicycle company over a website.

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Gave up on BMX to hang out with 13 year old soundcloud rappers, what a life, such a cool guy!
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"The only future for BMX"

Yeah, kids getting shit bikes, breaking them and then quitting. LOL
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I’ve been a 14 year old beginner for the last ten years
-adamnmexican

2/11/2020 5:45 AM

HavokDJ wrote:

I find it ironic a blind man is suing a bicycle company over a website.

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2/11/2020 6:55 AM

HavokDJ wrote:

I find it ironic a blind man is suing a bicycle company over a website.

Yeah that shits wack asf, big bet someone set it all up on a get rich quick scheme

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Testimony and apologies





I want everyone to know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of your sins, he went to hell for three days and defeated death and rose from the grave on the 3rd day.






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old edit

2/11/2020 6:59 AM

HavokDJ wrote:

I find it ironic a blind man is suing a bicycle company over a website.

I don’t even know how to feel about this.

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Gave up on BMX to hang out with 13 year old soundcloud rappers, what a life, such a cool guy!
-Sheldon on Adam22

"The only future for BMX"

Yeah, kids getting shit bikes, breaking them and then quitting. LOL
-jbales on mafiaBIKES

I’ve been a 14 year old beginner for the last ten years
-adamnmexican

2/11/2020 8:40 AM

Complaining to a company about their website is one thing. Suing for money is something different.

Sounds like the lawyers are on a mission.

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Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.

2/11/2020 9:03 AM

Fortyseven wrote:

Complaining to a company about their website is one thing. Suing for money is something different.

Sounds like the lawyers are on a mission.

Not denying the fact that lawyers love taking easy cases

But thats the same exact defense cities made when people wanted sidewalk cut aways and ramps into public offices for accessibility reasons

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Straight Simpin'

2/11/2020 9:27 AM

Dad_Im_Pregnant wrote:

Ooo finally something I can comment on..

So basically, I'm a web-dev by trade, and my previous company got a similar suit, here's my thoughts:

First off, I try to never ignore someone's complaints around accessibility of a website. The handicapped, disabled and people with accessibility concerns have it hard enough, and still generally have to fight for rights. I've done testing on the accessibility machines they use and trust me, that life is rough, i totally understand why people would be mad if a website doesn't have things in place to make it usable.

So basically, for starters, it does list that the man filing has 4 other cases open, which does appear cash-grabby, however, think of how many sites you use daily. Now think about how annoying it is if the site is broken (I remember plenty of threads about vital going down, same with twitter, fb, etc.). Now that you have a measurement for how it feels, imaging a handful of the websites you go to, just not working with no other solution (and never working for you). That's what it's like to need accessibility devices/

Looking at his other cases, it looks like they were against a vaping website, and another vaping material site, so it's not out of the realm to see this guy as an actual customer who is mad he can't use the web as anyone else could. You (not anyone in particular) in general need to keep this in the back of your mind and build empathy for these lifestyles, as they aren't a choice. Now with that out of the way, let's talk about the ADA and web-accessibility.

---------------

The ADA, as well has plenty of other companies have fairly simple tools to create, check and confirm that you are within a certain level of compliance. That being said, that level changes based on whether you're a private, public, worldwide, fortune500, government agency, etc. It's also up to you to make sure you're customers can use your website (that's just good customer service).

Some things the ADA will look for when checking for accessibility are related to navigation, color contrast, ease of use, etc
- Being able to tab through
- Allowing a screenreader to read things accordingly
- Allowing screen readers to separate titles by importance
- Color contrast for those with deficiencies in sight
- Links that 404
- Alt and robot text for readers
- Jumbled navigations
- Content hidden off screen

And a ton more, it's actually a pretty extensive list, a lot of stuff that you wouldn't even think as useful, but mean the difference someone being impaired and being able to use the site in full.

-------------

My thoughts on this, is that things happen. I think suing for "damages" is a little weird, perhaps just getting the ADA on them is sufficient enough. That is unless, they website was so hard to use that he ordered something he didn't expect, then Haro should refund them. I think how Haro responds will either smooth the case, or disrupt it more.

1. If they admit fault, take the slap, take the fine, they'll be able to move on and fix their website
2. If they dig their heels, then they will spin a rhetoric of not being allies to people with disabilities.

Joe already said he's committed to fixing the issues, which is good, but updating sites for accessibility can literally be a fulltime job. You need a strategy so the website is usable for everyone, but also doesn't look ridiculous to non-impaired users. It's a tough balance, but a ton of companies find it, and I'm sure they can as well.


TL:DR:

Don't automatically assume ill-intent for people who just want to use the web like non-disabled folks. Hopefully Haro can understand the importance of this, get what needs fixed, and move on.

As stated in the article, I also am unsure of the damages he is claiming, and am always on the side of alerting a company, far before bringing legal in. But I'm also able-bodied so I don't know much else to relate to how bad that could be, aside from my testing with assistive devices.

Great post, dude. My brother got pretty sick in 2006 and ended up in a wheelchair for about a year before he died. The world changed drastically when one of your family members requires a chair.

It's amazing how much we take for granted. As you say, there are plenty of people that are out for cash-grabs, but there are also legitimate issues that disabled people deal with that aren't anywhere in our spectrum of daily thought.

Thanks for the post and explanation, and thanks for keeping your mind open about people that aren't as lucky as the rest of us.

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BMX over 30: Eat clean, Stretch, and Pray.

2/11/2020 12:41 PM

TheDarkEnergist wrote:

Great post, dude. My brother got pretty sick in 2006 and ended up in a wheelchair for about a year before he died. The world changed drastically when one of your family members requires a chair.

It's amazing how much we take for granted. As you say, there are plenty of people that are out for cash-grabs, but there are also legitimate issues that disabled people deal with that aren't anywhere in our spectrum of daily thought.

Thanks for the post and explanation, and thanks for keeping your mind open about people that aren't as lucky as the rest of us.

Too bad he's getting negged for having the only spit of insight on this thread. Fuckin Haro fanboys...

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2/11/2020 1:11 PM

Im curious if any bmx websites have what ever it is hes sueing for


Maybe i should sue one of them lol sources for example because i have ADHD and there website is ridiculous especially if you’re trying to browse sale frame/parts haha how insane would that be smh

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Testimony and apologies





I want everyone to know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of your sins, he went to hell for three days and defeated death and rose from the grave on the 3rd day.






instagram
What would Jesus say: I didn't die for you to live like this!

old edit

2/11/2020 1:51 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/11/2020 1:54 PM

OneGuyIlluminatiEye wrote:

Im curious if any bmx websites have what ever it is hes sueing for


Maybe i should sue one of them lol sources for example because i have ADHD and there website is ridiculous especially if you’re trying to browse sale frame/parts haha how insane would that be smh

A lot of Accessibility (A11y) compliance things are built into site-builders like Bootstrap, wordpress, squarespace, etc. However, Haro was being hit for having broken links without enough content to tell a user where they were navigating.

Usually if you build on wordpress and create a link, it will at minimum look like this:

( href="link to page" title="Browse the store" )

Basically, if someone is using a screen reader, the reader would see the link and say it's location, so it might sound like this:

"Store", then the user could request more and it would say the title, so something like "See Haro's Sales Listings", and again if the user inquires, it could tell them the exact url "www.haro.com/store".

All of that is invisible to a user who isn't using an assistive device. Without an assistive device, you just see a hyperlink to "Store". But because you have access to all your senses, you can see it's store, you can move the mouse to click it, and most importantly, vision helps you process it's meaning

But some sites (government agencies, public help groups, etc) need to be further A11Y compliant, those would have links that can allow a user to tab through the page

And those parameters look kind of like this:

My subhead to my title
This is my title

Basically, an assistive device reads top down, so if you had a subhead stylistically above the header, then it would read the subhead first. But with the tabindex param, it would go in that order instead. Some people with hidden navigation will wrap their navs in an ignore tag, so readers don't read through navigations every page, then also tab index their header so if someone was on the site, it might sound like this

user hovers link to store
assistive device: "Store"
user goes there
assistive device: "Now on page: Store, Headline: Welcome to our store"

Where as without those, it could say:
assistive device: "Now on page: Store, Navigation: Home, About Us, Store, Collection, Contact Us, Headline: "Welcome to our store".

Which if you've ever listened to someone spam a robot voice, it fucking sucks, so shortening that annoyance in any way is super useful.


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Straight Simpin'

2/12/2020 6:02 AM

Seems like a cash grab to me. My first question is, did the guy contact them to ask for accommodation/alert them and get denied?

Kinda looks like he jumped right into a lawsuit upon discovery of the issue knowing fully that he would likely walk away with some cash.

Ultimately, if Haro uses a 3rd party Web Developer, wouldn't they be on the hook for much of the issue?

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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

"BIKES!" -Tom Segura

2/12/2020 6:25 AM

dave lawrence wrote:

Seems like a cash grab to me. My first question is, did the guy contact them to ask for accommodation/alert them and get denied?

Kinda looks like he jumped right into a lawsuit upon discovery of the issue knowing fully that he would likely walk away with some cash.

Ultimately, if Haro uses a 3rd party Web Developer, wouldn't they be on the hook for much of the issue?

If Haro used a third party as in:

Software solution (squarespace, wordpress, etc)
Those platforms are only responsible for including the ability to create those features, actually implementing them and anything else is up to the owner of the website.

Freelance Developer
If they used a single freelance developers, those devs are sort of protected by a rule that basically says, once they transfer ownership, they no longer assume liability. This type of protection is waived based on what the dev does. For instance, if I included a secret page that just had a bunch of slurs, I would not be protected.

Also it depends how the freelancer's service is marketed, if it's specifically states "web-accessible/a11y compliance" and stuff like that then it would waive protection as fraud

Development Company
If they used a whole design firm, those companies are usually set up as LLC's, and the only case you good go for is something around false advertising or fraud. But they would also have to explicitly state they are a11y compliant.

All in all, once Haro owns that site, it's up to them to make sure their up to snuff. Like I mentioned before, they weren't sued for compliance, they were sued for literally broken links. Like links that just take you to an empty page and then the user can't navigate back while on a screenreader.

If you're a global company, you have to be able to monitor that basic shit.

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Straight Simpin'

2/12/2020 9:44 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/12/2020 9:48 AM

Fortyseven wrote:

Complaining to a company about their website is one thing. Suing for money is something different.

Sounds like the lawyers are on a mission.

Dad_Im_Pregnant wrote:

Not denying the fact that lawyers love taking easy cases

But thats the same exact defense cities made when people wanted sidewalk cut aways and ramps into public offices for accessibility reasons

I fall in the middle of this one. I agree that people with disabilities need to be recognized and have rights but some stuff goes too far. Where that line is I don't know but if a blind guy needs a bike, you would think he could get someone to help him with the website. And if not, he can very well pick up the phone and call cuz I'm thinking his phone has brail and he could get the number somehow.

I mean it's not like shit is always easy for healthy people too. I feel like we're always getting the shaft left and right for some reason or another and every time you turn around something costs money. If you want to know why American Products are always so darned expensive, this is one of the reasons why. Cuz everyone feels they have a right to something that in the end, costs the consumer.

The flipside is that a lot of big companies are just lining their pockets and sometimes it's good they have some kind of accountability forced on them. But there again, I'm not super into all kinds of restrictions and such cuz there's no doubt when you own a business, especially a small business, there are a lot of expenses. And taxes and Govt regulations really weigh on a business.



Just my opinion.

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Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.

2/12/2020 10:06 AM

in the USA we have laws regarding disability access.

Haro failed to comply to these laws.

it's that simple.

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2/12/2020 10:36 AM

I can't really argue with that. I can maybe argue with a person getting a bunch of money cuz they weren't up to date. On the other hand usually the Govt' would slap a fine on them and then the govt is the benefactor. LOL.

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Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.

2/12/2020 11:11 AM

Typical Americans and their sue happy ways , got a problem in life , sue someone , it’s the American dream

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2/13/2020 9:57 AM

pnj wrote:

in the USA we have laws regarding disability access.

Haro failed to comply to these laws.

it's that simple.

Yes, it should have been corrected/caught by Haro before publishing the site/going live or whatever.

BUT, is it a cash grab to haul them into court as a first step? Or would letting them know first/asking for accommodation and THEN if it is not fixed within a reasonable amount of time go to court over it be less concerning/more of a reasonable reaction? I think that is a part of the conversation being had on this thread. The guy seems to be suing several places over similar things, which leads me to think he is just doing it for a quick buck.

In all customer service jobs I have had, we simply could not accommodate everyone for every possible need, nor could we ask about any disabilities etc unless done in a "what can I do to help you"/let them answer kind of way. If someone asked for an accommodation we didn't already have in place, we had channels to research to assist that person-BUT in ALL cases they needed to be asked for BY THE CUSTOMER for them to be brought up/discussed/researched. As to lawsuits for that, I have never heard of any from any employer for this practice (which fully complies with US laws/ADA as each place had a compliance officer/team to ensure we were compliant)

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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

"BIKES!" -Tom Segura