I just realized no heat treatment

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6/21/2016 7:22 PM

I was looking at different frames and noticed that most of the frames are not heat treated. Some have like 1 to 4 tubes that are heat treated but most are not. Does it mean heat treated is not necessary anymore?

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/21/2016 7:25 PM

It was never necessary , people used to ride frames made from trimoly and hi tensile steal frames

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6/21/2016 8:36 PM

eskimojay wrote:

It was never necessary , people used to ride frames made from trimoly and hi tensile steal frames

I always thought that most aftermarket frames are fully heat treated.

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/21/2016 8:51 PM

eskimojay wrote:

It was never necessary , people used to ride frames made from trimoly and hi tensile steal frames

neophyte16 wrote:

I always thought that most aftermarket frames are fully heat treated.

Expensive ones do . Makes frames stronger , although people suggest heating it again makes it weaker .

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6/21/2016 11:12 PM

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

Expensive ones do . Makes frames stronger , although people suggest heating it again makes it weaker .

yeah the most expensive ones are the only frame that are fully heat treated.

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/21/2016 11:29 PM

There's only a couple of brands that post weld heat treat frames. This is because it's an expensive process, and can warp the frame. Frames don't need to be heat treated as the weld temperature shouldn't affect the material and probably has no real benefit. With bars and forks it's a bit different due to the stress caused by bending them. It's a bit of a marketing ploy really

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6/22/2016 8:23 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

There's only a couple of brands that post weld heat treat frames. This is because it's an expensive process, and can warp the ...more

Lol bullshit.

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6/22/2016 11:13 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

There's only a couple of brands that post weld heat treat frames. This is because it's an expensive process, and can warp the ...more

Xxohioanxx wrote:

Lol bullshit.

Prove me wrong.

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6/22/2016 1:17 PM

As long as your headtube , bottom bracket and dropouts ( usually the standard ) are heat treated , it's fine because that's all connection points . Heat treating your seat stays , or whole toptube isn't going to be as necessary , especially with the added cost .

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Instagram : braydenbuckingham
My Cult 2 Short

6/23/2016 5:13 AM

Okay, so I read something about straight tubing stronger than butted tubing. Is it true? if it is, why do the majority of companies use butted tubing?

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/23/2016 7:46 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/23/2016 7:51 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

There's only a couple of brands that post weld heat treat frames. This is because it's an expensive process, and can warp the ...more

Xxohioanxx wrote:

Lol bullshit.

grumpySteve wrote:

Prove me wrong.

OMFG.

How about this, prove yourself right.

But, since you can't because you're talking out your ass, I'll go ahead and prove you wrong:

The phrase "Heat treatment" actually refers to a number of processes which refine the grain structure in metals. Grain structure is the size, shape and interaction between the individual crystals that make up a chunk of metal, and it has a pretty strong influence on the mechanical properties of that material.

I'm going to try and keep this on a level you'll understand, so I'll limit this to the relevant processes:

- Annealing is the process of reducing the hardness of a metal, therefore making it easier to form (bend, draw, stamp, whatever).

- Normalization is actually a specific type of annealing that makes the grain structure uniform after a forming or welding process. Forming and welding processes creates internal stresses (either due to changes in the grain structure, or due to uneven cooling), and normalizations relieves those stresses.

- Hardening is the process of increasing the hardness of a material. Harder materials generally have higher tensile strength, but that usually comes at the expense of increased brittleness (therefore decreased toughness).

- Tempering is a process that is performed on hardened metals which increases the toughness (yes, that's a technical term) by removing excess hardness.

So basically, when you build a frame you have a few things going on.

First off, to draw the tubing, you most likely have to start with an annealed billet. As you draw the billet into tube, you work harden the steel, and have to re-anneal it as you go or the tubing will crack. When you get to final dimensions, there is most likely (for high end tubing) a normalization, hardening and tempering process to get the tube to ideal mechanical properties and to relieve any internal residual stress from the forming process.

Then, there are the forming processes (e.g., bending the stays, ovalizing down/seat tubes). All of those processes introduce internal stresses and work harden the tubing, but not really enough to worry about too much. Machining and cold cutting does not really affect the tubes.

Next there is welding, and this is where things become a problem. Look, I know you can control heat input, and minimize the heat affected zone around the weld, but you can't get around the fact that you are actually melting two pieces of metal together. Welds are for all intents and purposes, similar to cast steel. Any welding changes the grain structure.

However, for the most part even though the welds are the hardest (therefore the most brittle) part of the frame, they are still strong enough not to become a problem in the life of the frame. However, they are more susceptible to fatigue, and that's why usually a frame will break at a weld.

So to get around that, you have post weld heat treatment. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing post weld heat treatment consists of the same normalization, hardening and tempering process the tubing went through, but I think you could most likely work those three steps into a single process.

But, once you've committed to post weld heat treatment, that changes your production process. Tempered tubing is difficult to deal with, it's difficult to cut, difficult to bend, difficult to machine, and you have to be careful about heat input in the welding process.

If you know you're going to post weld heat treat, you can buy your tubesets fully annealed, which is easier to work with. Again, this is pure speculation, but I kinda think this is why Sunday can do the tube shapes they do.

So you weld your frame together from fully annealed tubing, normalize, harden and temper it, but now you definitely have to do a cold set step to correct any deformation caused by the heat treatment. Really that's not a big deal because most frames get a cold set process anyway. However, you do need to chase the bottom bracket and head tube, and I'm almost certain that's why Sunday machines the bottom bracket post heat treatment. It's most likely more expensive (due to the added difficulty of machining tempered steel), but IMO, it's well worth it. If you've ever pressed a bottom bracket into a Sunday, it presses in like buttah. it's nice.

The result is a frame with minimal internal residual stress (just the little bit introduced during the cold set step), and a uniform, optimal grain structure. And although a post weld heat treated frame may not be any stronger then a non-heat treated frame initially, and they may both fail at similar loading, the post weld heat treated frame will have way better fatigue life.

So, I'm guessing you're thinking "I've seen Sundays break at welds, tecnic1 is talking out his ass". Well, even though you've relieved the residual stress from the weld, and even though it's a uniform grain structure, the weld still introduces a stress concentrator as a result of the geometry of the weld, and the junction of the tubes. There's no getting around that.


So that's why post weld heat treatment is legit, and not a marketing ploy.

Source: I'm a mechanical engineer who works with heat treated shit.

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6/23/2016 8:17 AM

tecnic1 wrote:

OMFG.

How about this, prove yourself right.

But, since you can't because you're talking out your ass, I'll go ahead and ...more

haha damn im beyond impressed with post

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6/23/2016 8:35 AM

neophyte16 wrote:

Okay, so I read something about straight tubing stronger than butted tubing. Is it true? if it is, why do the majority of ...more

Yes butted tubing is shaved down thinner so it is weaker but lighter

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6/23/2016 8:58 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/23/2016 9:01 AM

tecnic1 wrote:

OMFG.

How about this, prove yourself right.

But, since you can't because you're talking out your ass, I'll go ahead and ...more

My point is focused purely on post weld heat treating. Name 2 bmx companies that do this on frames, I'll help you out with one. Sunday. Name another.
Not all tubesets need pre weld heat treatment either, as it depends heavily on the quality of the material. Some of which are actually strengthened by the drawing process. This can also be said about certain materials and the need to heat treat, as some air harden post weld, eliminating the need for heat treatment (although not often, if ever, used in the bmx world).

My point is, there is no evidence that post weld heat treating in the cycle industry on a frame is beneficial. Let's go back to Sunday. They have the wave tubes, post weld heat treatment, and a lifetime warranty. But they still break. Compare that to any other brand that doesn't use any of those techniques. Yes, they still break, but do they break any easier? That's extremely debatable considering people have snapped Sunday frames within months, yet other brands frames can last year's.

The process of heat treating a frame is quite likely to warp the frame. Sunday/odyssey have pretty much got their process dialed. Is it really any benefit for any other brand to invest time and money into this when the frame COULD still snap? Not really. Especially if they chose better materials, and a better welder.

Let's take fbm as an example. They use good quality materials and manufacture their frames in house with their own welders. No post weld heat treating. What percentage of those snap? I'm not going to claim they're the best, or that they never snap, but it's rare. Just like pretty much every other brand out there. Even if they use lower quality materials and get their frames manufactured on the other side of the world.

I appreciate your knowledge. But I have also studied engineering, I've also contacted a few steel manufacturers asking about the quality of their materials, bike companies inquiring what materials they use and why, frame builders with the same questions, and fabricators, structural engineers and heat treaters about the need to post weld heat treat bicycle frames.

On paper it should be beneficial, but in the real world, it's not necessary. And extremely expensive.

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6/23/2016 10:41 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

My point is focused purely on post weld heat treating. Name 2 bmx companies that do this on frames, I'll help you out with ...more

I'm not going to argue with anecdotes. We can go back and forth with the "My cousin's girlfriend's brother Bubby broke a Shitstack BFM, so they suck" all day.

The metallurgy doesn't lie. You get better mechanical properties from heat treating welded metal structures.

There is no magical welder skills, or pixie dust derived steel that gets around the fact that there is a phase transformation that happens when you weld stuff together that results in increased brittleness and decreased fracture toughness. You can minimize that, you can design around that, but you can't escape that without PWHT.

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6/23/2016 11:34 AM

So much stuff to soak in! Great info and banter going on here....

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6/23/2016 1:20 PM

tecnic1 wrote:

I'm not going to argue with anecdotes. We can go back and forth with the "My cousin's girlfriend's brother Bubby broke a ...more

I completely get your point. But it doesn't make enough of a difference to make it worth it. You haven't proved me wrong, you've just listed a few types of heat treatment and what they do. But that doesn't change the fact that it isn't massively beneficial. That's why no one bothers with it.

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6/23/2016 1:55 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I completely get your point. But it doesn't make enough of a difference to make it worth it. You haven't proved me wrong, ...more

Wait, so your whole argument is that because only one company (which happens to appear to be one of the more successful companies in BMX right now), it's not worth while?

I don't know why more companies don't use PWHT (and neither do you). I can speculate that it could be initial cost, not enough volume to recover the initial investment, or maybe planned obsolescence. I can tell you it's not because it doesn't work.

In the case of Sunday, I would speculate that when the first started up, the decided that they would differentiate themselves by making stronger frames by using PWHT and custom drawn tubes. I think it worked.

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6/23/2016 3:39 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/23/2016 3:41 PM

Why would you PWHT your frames causing extra cost when putting weed stickers on your frames sell more than PWHT frames?

Weed stickers > PWHT

Shout out to adam22.

#bmxfu
#weederreday

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6/23/2016 5:36 PM

tecnic1 wrote:

Wait, so your whole argument is that because only one company (which happens to appear to be one of the more successful ...more

I read awhile back it was to cut costs. I could be completely wrong here but I remember someone explaining how it isn't necessary to heat treat the entire frame, stuff like dropouts, BB shell & headtube though should be, so some companies started only heat treating those parts to cut costs and mark the frame down. I think they did that with Chase Dehart's new signature frame actually which is why it's $100+ less than the average frame on the market.

I guess in a sense it can be seen as a "marketing ploy" cause I know I'd rather spend the extra cash to get a fully heat treated frame, but that's cause I'd rather not bend/twist my frame as easy. To say it's JUST a marketing ploy though is completely idiotic in my opinion.

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6/23/2016 7:36 PM

The point is, it doesn't have enough of an affect to make it worth it. As I said, Sunday frames can still snap. So why would a company invest so much money for very little benefit? If it really was a game changer, everyone would be doing it. But it's not, so they aren't. So in that sense, it is a marketing ploy. They don't say "our frames are post weld heat treated, but you could probably snap it as easily as any other frame".
Laird frames aren't PWHT but everyone seems to think they're the best on the market and will pay way over the odds for one (fair enough, it's custom, but s&m, fbm, standard, stout and plenty of others can custom build a frame for less).
As for the popularity of Sunday, it's very regional. I'm yet to see a wave frame in the flesh in the UK.

I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with Sunday in any way whatsoever. I think it's good that they're pushing the boundaries in frame manufacture, and that they're confident enough in their product that they offer a lifetime warranty. But if you look at it from any other brands point of view, why spend so much money perfecting the process when a definite positive outcome is questionable?

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6/23/2016 8:24 PM

i don't want to quote the post but thanks tectnic1 i learned something today..

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6/23/2016 9:15 PM

sXeBMXer wrote:

So much stuff to soak in! Great info and banter going on here....

True, i didn't expect someone would reply to this with more than 1 sentence.

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/23/2016 9:16 PM

neophyte16 wrote:

Okay, so I read something about straight tubing stronger than butted tubing. Is it true? if it is, why do the majority of ...more

eskimojay wrote:

Yes butted tubing is shaved down thinner so it is weaker but lighter

Thanks. But will it cost more than the butted tubings? Or less?

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/24/2016 7:56 AM

Anyone know what thickness of tubing are used for butted frames and straight gauge tubing frames?

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/24/2016 9:09 AM

neophyte16 wrote:

Anyone know what thickness of tubing are used for butted frames and straight gauge tubing frames?

It varies between manufacturer, as does the cost. A lot of frames will have a straight gauge downtube and chainstays to help prevent dents. That means they'll be a bit heavier, but will last longer. Butting a tube is usually just to make it lighter, it will keep the same strength at the weld, as that part of the tube is the same thickness, but the middle is thinner, saving a bit of weight but meaning it'll dent easier.

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6/24/2016 11:07 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/24/2016 11:08 AM

neophyte16 wrote:

Okay, so I read something about straight tubing stronger than butted tubing. Is it true? if it is, why do the majority of ...more

eskimojay wrote:

Yes butted tubing is shaved down thinner so it is weaker but lighter

neophyte16 wrote:

Thanks. But will it cost more than the butted tubings? Or less?

Butted tubing will cost more usually

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6/24/2016 11:26 AM

neophyte16 wrote:

Anyone know what thickness of tubing are used for butted frames and straight gauge tubing frames?

grumpySteve wrote:

It varies between manufacturer, as does the cost. A lot of frames will have a straight gauge downtube and chainstays to help ...more

Around what mm or inches? And does it depend on what tubings are used? Because I saw a lot of types of tubings. Sanko, vhts?, supertherm. Etc.

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You say BMX is your life but you barely ride.
BUT hey, That's none of my business.

6/24/2016 11:54 AM

sXeBMXer wrote:

So much stuff to soak in! Great info and banter going on here....

knowledge is power guys.... keep the convo going, I'm definitely learning something.

As for the mention of downtubes and whatnot, what did you guys think of the Sunday Wave tubing back in their early days? and why didn't they continue making it?

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6/24/2016 12:21 PM

While this is all very important, for your average rider doing 180s and some foot tall ledge stuff, it won't be drastically different heat treated VS not aside from saving a few bucks one way VS the other.

Find a frame that fits your riding style, buy it and ride it. If you get 1-2 years out of it that's pretty solid.

SIDE NOTE: I've found that riding the rails I have and basically doing the brakeless 4 pegs setup and using the pegs beats the HELL out of my bike a LOT more than how I used to ride.

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