More hub issues + my fork might be the cause of them

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4/14/2016 9:00 PM

I'll try to keep this short and simple since many of you already know about my millions of problems I've been having with front hubs lately.


so my hub was making ticking noises, I replace the bearings and it spins worse than it did (The old ones were ceramics thoughhh) and within 24 hours of riding it, it starts making pinging noises. I installed them properly and the axle felt fine by hand to spin... so what the fuck?

I decided to check my fork dropouts with a tool we have to see if they were bent, causing any sort of issue. I found they were slightly (Along with a few small cracks, nothing serious)


Then I decided to put my spare male axle front hub on in the meantime while I try to figure out what to do (And because I don't trust the pinging noises my Tree hub is currently making) and somehow it spins completely fine, when my Tree hub and every other hub didn't spin for shit.


So my first question... Any idea why the male axle hub actually spins like it should and the female ones didn't? (Besides females being super finicky lolol)

My second question... Could my dropouts being bent thaat little bit, be causing all my issues? I understand bent dropouts can cause uneven pressure on the bearings, but to cause ALL the problems I've been having, too?

And finally, my last question... Where do I go from here? I took photos of the cracks and emailed Sunday's warranty. I'll probably just call them tomorrow at some point too but my fork issue should be getting taken care of... But what about hubs? Should I even bother with the Tree hub? I already replaced the bearings and ran into issues just a day later, but that could be chalked up to the fork dropouts being bent. If it comes down to it and I do need a new hub, as much as I'm against Shadow, I can get a brand new white one for dirt cheap (Assuming it's still in stock) so I might go for that one and save myself a headache, cause this male axle hub won't last me. The axle's already bent haha.


Any incite, suggestions, comments, etc, are welcome.

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4/14/2016 9:02 PM

this is how bent they are. the pieces in the middle SHOULD be lined up perfectly if the dropouts aren't bent, but as you can see they're not. So it's off, but not by much. But still that could do it

Photo

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4/14/2016 10:15 PM

I don't know, could be? Could you bend fork dropouts? lol They're not anything like frame dropouts, so...

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Bought from: adam1234, tomdon (2), oscarbmx, the balt, smokesmokesmoke

4/14/2016 10:42 PM

Your forks could be slightly twisted rather than the dropouts being bent. That would give the same result with that dropout alignment tool. Maybe that particular front wheel isn't as precision engineered, giving a bit of leeway with how it spins in the dropouts. If there's any cracks whatsoever I'd suggest new forks though

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4/14/2016 10:43 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

Your forks could be slightly twisted rather than the dropouts being bent. That would give the same result with that dropout ...more

As soon as people say cracks, it's usually time for new parts. Imagine hopping a 6 set and having the fork dropouts snap or something. That would fckin suck.

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Bought from: adam1234, tomdon (2), oscarbmx, the balt, smokesmokesmoke

4/14/2016 10:54 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

Your forks could be slightly twisted rather than the dropouts being bent. That would give the same result with that dropout ...more

Yeah I think they're twisted rather than bent. Just ever so slightly though, but that could be enough I guess.


And do you mean my Tree hub or my Coalition (the spare male axle hub I have) isn't precision engineered? But yeah, I already emailed warranty about them and will likely just call them tomorrow at some point too.

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4/15/2016 12:08 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

Your forks could be slightly twisted rather than the dropouts being bent. That would give the same result with that dropout ...more

sundaybmxRR wrote:

Yeah I think they're twisted rather than bent. Just ever so slightly though, but that could be enough I guess.


And do you ...more

Seeing the photo, it really does seem that your forks are twisted, and the dropouts are not really bent.

The thing is that your hub is not spinning straight, but spinning crooked to a side-this is putting stress on the bearings, rim and tire (you will wear out your tire a wee bit faster than usual).

All hubs are precision engineered-but that doesn't mean that they have the same load analyzation or testing. No matter what type of hub, it just has got to run straight to put as little stress on it as possible. It's for axial loading, and not really side-loading.

If you had landed hard with the twisted forks, the hub would have taken quite a fair load of stress, and you could have some internal cracks in the hub, or a place somewhere where the metal is in fatigue.

I suggest running the male hubs and seeing if there is the same problem after a certain amount of time-say the same amount of riding on them that you did with the female hubs. If there is the same thing popping up, then it's for sure a proof to get those new forks...

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It doesn't matter where a train goes. It's decidin' to get on that does.

4/15/2016 12:30 AM

Skylight wrote:

Seeing the photo, it really does seem that your forks are twisted, and the dropouts are not really bent.

The thing is that ...more

That makes sense the more I think of it now that I see they're twisted rather than bent.

The only thing that doesn't make sense here is why the male hubs seem to work better than the female hubs. I've ridden this one before for about a month a few months ago before I got my Tree hub and had no issues with it. It still spun fine.

Same with my Demolition Mary-Kate hub, that spun fine but the bearing seats were stretched and bearings didn't sit in them properly which is why I had to get a new hub in the first place. Both of these hubs used threaded hardware though so I'm wondering if that has anything to do with it. Every press-fit hub I've had just gets way too tight and ends up not spinning well, but now I'm thinking the cause of that is cause of my dropouts being slightly twisted causing something to compress that wouldn't compress with threaded hardware.


Only thing I can think of to make sense of this but I'm not sure what you guys think.

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4/15/2016 2:26 AM

sundaybmxRR wrote:

Yeah I think they're twisted rather than bent. Just ever so slightly though, but that could be enough I guess.


And do you ...more

I meant the coalition. Tree obviously put a lot of effort and thought into their parts so I would've thought they'd have more issues if things aren't quite perfect.
With thread on hardware, the dropouts clamp against the lock nut and have no affect on it movement wise. Whereas, with bushes, they'll be forced at a slightly squiffy angle. I had the same problem with an old proper hub with some twisted forks. I got different forks and it was fine.

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4/15/2016 3:32 AM

The male axle is steel, so it's stiffer. When you tighten the front wheel, it deforms the forks to align with the axle..

The Tree axle is aluminum, which (although stronger) is more flexible than steel. So when you tighten the front wheel, the axle deforms to align with the fork, and that causes your bearing misalignment.

Try the Tree front wheel on someone else's forks. It it rolls smooth, replace your fork.

Actually, if it's cracked, replace your fork anyway.

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4/15/2016 8:01 AM

tecnic1 wrote:

The male axle is steel, so it's stiffer. When you tighten the front wheel, it deforms the forks to align with the axle..

The ...more

This. The male axle deforms the fork, the fork deforms the aluminum axle.

The Tree might not really work that well seeing that it has probably been damaged from those deformed forks.

Hit up warranty with a good serious email full of proofs and you'll get a need fork asap... Damn quality control... I guess they deformed while welding?

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It doesn't matter where a train goes. It's decidin' to get on that does.

4/15/2016 8:22 AM

It's entirely possible that the forks have twisted from riding. Quality control is top notch for this sort of thing. Plus they would've been jigged during welding, pretty much preventing them from being able to twist. The only way this could realistically be a qc issue is if they were heat treated and not checked after. Although I'm pretty sure they would've been checked.

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4/15/2016 9:00 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

It's entirely possible that the forks have twisted from riding. Quality control is top notch for this sort of thing. Plus they ...more

Yep, but when you have 100 forks to be checked and not a lot of time...

Heat treating doesn't really affect the thing. My guess is that it might have come from welding-I'm no welder, maybe a welder on here could shed more light (I'm looking straight at you, Dave).

Good luck with the fork warranty. What's the brand BTW?

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It doesn't matter where a train goes. It's decidin' to get on that does.

4/15/2016 9:27 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/15/2016 9:28 AM

Parts warping during heat treat is actually very common, in my limited experience.

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4/15/2016 10:00 AM

It is very common, and yet if the material is of good quality it gives no benefit. This comes straight from a few engineering and bike companies I've been in touch with whilst looking into getting a frame built. That's why some better companies don't heat treat, they just use better materials and have good welders.

Whilst welding, the forks are in a fixed position, they cannot twist (unless drastically over heated). Whereas, landing a bit wonky, or front wheel first quite hard a few times can twist forks

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4/15/2016 10:59 AM

loosegrips wrote:

Parts warping during heat treat is actually very common, in my limited experience.

Absolutely, but there should be a cold set step after heat treatment, when the frame/fork/bars are checked in a fixture, and bent (or cold set) into alignment if necessary.

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4/15/2016 11:03 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

It is very common, and yet if the material is of good quality it gives no benefit. This comes straight from a few engineering ...more

Saying heat treatment is of no benefit is a bit of a stretch. I'll give you unnecessary most of the time, but there are definitely benefits to heat treating parts.

Even if you use the nicest, strongest materials, you still introduce residual stress when you bend and weld it. In its most basic form, heat treatment normalizes those residual stresses.

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4/15/2016 11:30 AM

The tree is press fit hardware, right?

MAYBE when you crank down, the hardware is then sitting with more stress on one side VS other, causing a little play on say the bottom and the top is closer to the bearing/race putting stress on it. With a male axle there might be a difference in the hardware, which allows the stress to hit the lock nut/cone nut and stop there, not making it to the bearing to the same degree.

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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

"BIKES!" -Tom Segura

4/15/2016 11:35 AM

tecnic1 wrote:

The male axle is steel, so it's stiffer. When you tighten the front wheel, it deforms the forks to align with the axle..

The ...more

I tried my wheel with a friends fork, and his wheel that actually spins nice in my fork… neither of them spun very well… Haha so I'm not sure what to make of that…

What you said makes sense though. The forks are 3 and a half years old so I can't really be mad either, they served their time. Warranty just hit me back up and told me to send them in to be inspected so I'll go from there I guess

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4/15/2016 11:36 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

It's entirely possible that the forks have twisted from riding. Quality control is top notch for this sort of thing. Plus they ...more

Skylight wrote:

Yep, but when you have 100 forks to be checked and not a lot of time...

Heat treating doesn't really affect the thing. My ...more

It would have been jigged while welding, and typically left to cool IN the jig to prevent warpage as much as possible as it cools.

Had that been the case from the factory he would have had these issues IMMEDIATELY. If that's the case, there should be no reason not to warranty.

If the issues came up several months later, it likely was a developed-by-riding issue, and may not be covered.

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"Hey anybody ever make that mistake like right when you wake up in the morning and you believe in yourself?" -Kyle Kinane

"BIKES!" -Tom Segura

4/15/2016 8:54 PM

Skylight wrote:

This. The male axle deforms the fork, the fork deforms the aluminum axle.

The Tree might not really work that well seeing ...more

True, riding the Tree hub with my forks like that probably messed that up as well haha just my luck.


But yeah I emailed them last night, heard back this morning but then just opted to give em a call and the guy helped me sort everything out really fast. Gonna ship em out Monday, so if I do decide to get a new hub just to remove any chance of riding a messed up front hub, I'll definitely wait till I get my new forks to put it on though.


They're Sunday Octaves btw. Got about 3.5 years out of them so I can't really be mad haha. I don't think they came to me warped though otherwise my old Demolition hub would have been having the same problems I only started running into the last 1-2 years. But who knows.

Either way I'm pumped on getting some new forks here soon. Hopefully that solves my issues once and for all haha

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4/16/2016 6:37 AM

tecnic1 wrote:

The male axle is steel, so it's stiffer. When you tighten the front wheel, it deforms the forks to align with the axle..

The ...more

Skylight wrote:

This. The male axle deforms the fork, the fork deforms the aluminum axle.

The Tree might not really work that well seeing ...more

sundaybmxRR wrote:

True, riding the Tree hub with my forks like that probably messed that up as well haha just my luck.


But yeah I emailed ...more

I wouldn't give up on the hub yet. Maybe swap the bearings again, and if it still sucks, maybe then.

I love Tree hubs though.

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