New axle time

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2/16/2015 5:53 AM

So for one reason or another, i kind of want to make my own axle for my front hub. One of the reasons is so i can run intergrated hub guards both side. Anyway, so material I'm gunna use 7075-t6 as ive got some at home, and if its good enough for kink, odyssey, eclat, g-sport etc, im sure it'll do for a front hub. Now my main worry is the threads. Some, like mine now, use helicoilled threads, which i huess is an option, but i have to buy them, and right now im having problems with my helicoilled threads due to somebody telling me to try a oppo smith. so yeah, not too keen on them atm. Some hubs just use normal threads, like the antigram i think, so i guess they cant be that bad? Anyone got the antigram fron btw? Next thing, im gunna have the left side cone nut redesigned as a hub guard, so it'll be part of the axle itself, but im just thinking, with all the bashing hub guards get, is there any possiblity or my bending the axle from grinding if its all 1pc? Its my oppo side, so i rarely grind on it, but when i do, it wont be buttery smooth. Although aslong as the tolerances as tight enough, it probably wont make a massive issue as there wont be much/any real movement

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2/16/2015 7:13 AM

So far....
Photo

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2/16/2015 8:21 AM

I can't see your pic, but reading your post, I have a few quick thoughts.

I think the point of heli-coils is that they are more tolerant of cross threading than aluminum. I suppose that there would be more area to resist thread pull out, but I don't think that would be a big deal. Therefore, as long as you are careful starting your bolts, and use long enough bolt, you should be OK.

Also, as long as you are starting from scratch, I would recommend threading it to something common (e.g., 3/8-16, 3/8-24, M10-1.25) so that you can just get new hardware at Lowes if you have to. I'm sure everyone has their reasons for using odd threads, but I don't see it.

An integrated hub guard is cool, and I generally like lowering part counts, but the small amount of slip in a press fit guard would help mitigate some of the bending moment instead of transferring it straight to the axle. Addiditionally, it is a wear item, so it would be beneficial to be able to replace it without replacing the entire axle.

Also (again, I can't see your pic at work), I'm not sure how you would do inner shoulders, because the bearing would have to press on from the opposite side. I suppose you could do collars with set screws, but that doesn't seem optimal.

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2/16/2015 9:00 AM

Helicoiled threads are alot stronger than just tapping the aluminium, and once ive bought some i can replace them if need be.

Im think intergrated guard because the way the axle is on the v1, the cone nut on the left doesnt come off. Its not all one piece, but i think its like an interference fit (is that the term?), so turnin it into a guard shouldnt really make a difference. And if this axle were to fail, the only expence would be the helicoiled threads, so i wouldnt care. Thread size im sticking with, bevause itd be harder to get common thread sized chromoly bolts. And the axle doesnt have inner shoulders on the axle, as it just slides straight out, so in theory, itll all fit together relatively easy. Cheers for the input dude!

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2/16/2015 1:59 PM

I think you're off to a good start. Definitely keep an eye on the tolerances. Have you thought about something like this?

Photo

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2/16/2015 2:24 PM

I lol'd ^

For the record, the Antigram hub uses helicoils I'm pretty sure. There's one at the shop I was looking at and it seemed to have them in there but I'm not 100% sure.

I would definitely make sure to use helicoils in there though since it's an aluminum axle, not just because the risk of stripping either, but that shit seizes so easily even if you use anti-seize or grease. My Kink Viridian hub was just an aluminum axle with no helicoils and taking an axle bolt out of that was a pain in the ass after the first couple days I had it.

As for the integrated hub guard, it's a neat idea, only real downfalls I see are you either deforming the guard from grinding and it bends in and starts touching the spokes or you ever decide to not run pegs and you're left with an integrated guard without pegs. Neither of which are huge issues cause you can just file the guard down so it stops running, or just put the old axle in or something.

And for it causing the axle to bend easier, I don't really think it would unless you're constantly bashing directly on it. It's all 1 piece now so more force is going to be applied to the axle, at least how I see it but I could be wrong.

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2/16/2015 3:12 PM

Profile axles are not helicoiled. I just don't see helicoils as a must have. Nicer definitely, but not necessary.

I don't have my stack of specifications in from of me, but there are some grades of precipitation hardened stainless (15-4 and 18-8 come to mind) steel that are as strong or stronger than cromoly, and are also less likely to cause the galling issue dude mentioned in the previous post. You can get 15-4 bolts for sure on Amazon for like $4 each.

And if your building your own axle, I would add shoulders. Its just a lot better design. Without shoulders you add a side load to the bearings (when you tighten the wheel), which not only makes them wear faster, but makes them roll shittier too. Think bottom bracket without spacer.

And I'm definitely against an integrated hub guard without shoulders on the axle. You might as well smash the bearing with a hammer. With a shoulder you would be trying to compress the inner race, but without, you are trying to pish the inner race out of the bearing. That's not very hard to do.

You could try to find some angular contact bearings, but I would just add shoulders.

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2/16/2015 3:15 PM

Xxohioanxx wrote:

I think you're off to a good start. Definitely keep an eye on the tolerances. Have you thought about something like this?

Photo

I too lol'd.


Yeah i looked up a few axles and i couldnt remember which was which threads wise, so it could do. In theory, it should be as strong as the axle in the antigram, both are 17mm 7075-t6 with helicoiled steel threads. And ill have like 10 hrlicoils so plenty if the come out like mine are now....
The intergrated guard is the sane design as my one i made to replace the right side cone nut. The hub shell is already designed to have plenty of spoke clearance so thats not a problrm. And i doubt ill take my pegs off, but id still have my current axle to put back on.
As for tolerances ill take my guard and cone in so i can ensure its a nice fit, and ill take my axle to make finer measurements.

If it works, ill be stoked. If not, its not a problem, worth a try. Ill reviee it at the end of sumner, see how it holds up.

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2/16/2015 3:22 PM

tecnic1 wrote:

Profile axles are not helicoiled. I just don't see helicoils as a must have. Nicer definitely, but not necessary.

I don't ...more

I dont think you understand about the axle... That is already how the axle is that comes with the hub. You take the cone off (now my guard) and then pull the axle out, and it slides through leaving the bearings in the shell. It is already working, so why would i change it? I want to do some original, and to my knowledge, theres not a hub on the market with a 1pc axle/hub guard, mainly as most of thr hubs arent posdible to make a 1pc axle/guard due to their dedign. On mine it is, so imma go for it. As for the threads, helicoiled threads are better for this design, so ill get them whether i need them or not.

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2/16/2015 3:29 PM

tecnic1 wrote:

Profile axles are not helicoiled. I just don't see helicoils as a must have. Nicer definitely, but not necessary.

I don't ...more

His hub uses a floating axle design, meaning it doesn't need shoulders. It uses a design just like bottom brackets cause it has a tube spacer in between the 2 bearings to make up for the shoulders, allowing the axle to be pulled in and out without having to knock the bearings out.

Like this

Photo

you can see the spacer inside the hub on top

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2/16/2015 3:43 PM

I must have missed the reference to the spacer before, but that makes more sense, I don't see how it would even roll without the spacer.

And to answer your question, why not change it? I would use the opportunity to try to improve it. You are building a part specific to your need, as opposed to a factory in Taiwan pulling a part they probabibly use on a zillion different hubs designed to be easy to manufacture and assemble and to meet a price point.

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2/17/2015 5:52 AM

tecnic1 wrote:

I must have missed the reference to the spacer before, but that makes more sense, I don't see how it would even roll without ...more

because the main this about this axle is that it is a 1pc axle and hubguard. If i machine inner bearing seats, it makes the design physically impossible......


anyway, heres the first prototype for 'proof of concept' just to check it all fits together etc. its a bit beat up, since i wasnt thinking and ended up snapping a drill bit in it haha, doesnt matter though, im not interested in the inside of the axle at the momentPhoto

Photo

Photo

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2/17/2015 7:37 AM

better be careful dude, next thing you know there is gonna be a company stealing this idea haha

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2/17/2015 8:14 AM

MaximusBikes wrote:

better be careful dude, next thing you know there is gonna be a company stealing this idea haha

Haha. Tell me about it, sam baskett is already jumping on the brass parts trend by making his bar ends... Mine are better than his!!! And i started brass first!! What a trend whore.


Callin brass as the next trend after pictures of stars n shit

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2/17/2015 8:42 AM

I hate floating axles. I thought for a few days how this could be a bad idea, and other than the obvious having to replace the whole axle when the guard is toasted or if the axle strips/cross threads, I couldnt think of anything. Maybe try using chromoly or grade 8 steel tho?

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2/17/2015 8:55 AM

tomdon wrote:

I hate floating axles. I thought for a few days how this could be a bad idea, and other than the obvious having to replace the ...more

I doubt it'll be toasted very fast, my eclat teck guard has been going strong for a while. Barely any real damage, i'm not one of those riders that lands on their guard 24/7 but i doubt it'd be ruined very fast, i bet you could make a little plastic cover for it and whenever that is done you just replace it. It'd be fine. Like have it so it clicks over top of it and it stays on like that, it'd work really well too i bet. Use rubber on the side that touches the guard to help it stay in place a bit.

It'd be sick.

And Eddi, make a sprocket guard or sprocket!

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2/17/2015 8:57 AM

tomdon wrote:

I hate floating axles. I thought for a few days how this could be a bad idea, and other than the obvious having to replace the ...more

Im only using 7075-t6 because i still have like 170mm ish of 65mm thick bar, so i might aswell use it. If it fails ill defo look into making one out of some grade of steel.
Just brainstorming here, anyone think a silver steel axle will hold up? It wouldnt be a 1pc axke guard, but as a stand alone axle, it might be quite good? Although im not at all familier wuth its actual mechanical properties, but i know its the strongest metal i can get for free

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2/17/2015 9:01 AM

MaximusBikes wrote:

I doubt it'll be toasted very fast, my eclat teck guard has been going strong for a while. Barely any real damage, i'm not one ...more

Yeah my custom guard is holdin up real nice right now, but its winter so its hard to tell haha. Ive thought about nylon sleeve type thing, but the stuff we have at work isnt thick enough. Maybe in the future, ill defo look into it some time.

And sprocjet etc i cant do coz i dont do cnc. I was thinkin of asking to learn in my free tine, but ive been given a project thats representin the engineerin dept, but that could lead to me winning apprentice of the year which has a £3,000 prize... So i need to concentrate on that!

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2/17/2015 11:34 AM

Dope. I would upgrade to larger bearings and a 15mm chromo axle with DG guards personally.

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2/17/2015 12:58 PM

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

Dope. I would upgrade to larger bearings and a 15mm chromo axle with DG guards personally.

Cheers dude. Never thought of doing a smaller axle with bigger bearings. If i do a steel axle ill defo go with 15mm with larger bearings. Good thinking wink

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2/17/2015 1:12 PM

Man, at first i feel like people didn't really get what you meant, its basically like a 2piece crank, but an axle to replace the spindle, and a guard to replace the crank arm.

I don't understand how it would put more stress on the axle than any other guard would, because I know all 4 off my guards replace my cone nuts and sit on the axle, and if i bash them they will still put stress on the axle, just like this one, no less or no more.

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2/18/2015 1:55 AM

BLVCK wrote:

Man, at first i feel like people didn't really get what you meant, its basically like a 2piece crank, but an axle to replace ...more

cheers dude, and yeah man, i know what you mean. the difference is stress im guessing is that small its not worth thinking about

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