New bike build: Kink vs S&M

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8/27/2019 2:05 PM

I’m going to keep this real simple. I’ve been riding the same bike since I was 16 years old (I’m now 25) and I want to build a new bike. I’ve got the frame narrowed down to 2: the S&M Holy Diver frame in a 20.5 tt and the Kink Titan 2 frame in a 20.5 tt. Both in black. Can I get some opinions? Also, if I’m overlooking a good frame I’ll take recommendations as well. I’d like to keep it American made in case I have to deal with any customer support due to breakage inside warranty, that sort of stuff. Thanks

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8/27/2019 2:18 PM

Both are very solid, I’d side with which dimensions you like better.

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8/27/2019 2:24 PM

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8/27/2019 2:28 PM

S&M

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fack off

8/27/2019 4:00 PM

Does Kink make American made frames?

American made = S&M, FBM, Standardd, Laird, PDC , off the top of my head. as in, they actually weld the tubes to make the frames, in the USA.

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8/27/2019 4:09 PM

pnj wrote:

Does Kink make American made frames?

American made = S&M, FBM, Standardd, Laird, PDC , off the top of my head. as in, they actually weld the tubes to make the frames, in the USA.

I guess you’re right. Their website says they’re based out of NY but that doesn’t mean their parts are made there. I still like the frame though, seems solid. And they offer a 2 year warranty.

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8/27/2019 4:45 PM

pnj wrote:

Does Kink make American made frames?

American made = S&M, FBM, Standardd, Laird, PDC , off the top of my head. as in, they actually weld the tubes to make the frames, in the USA.

They used to in pretty sure , don’t think so anymore , the freebird was American made I think I remember

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8/27/2019 4:59 PM

Hobie Doan

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8/27/2019 5:27 PM

Heavy Duty

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8/27/2019 5:43 PM

Both frame geometries look twitchy and technical, but the difference is subtle. If that’s what you’re looking for, the S&M has a higher bottom bracket and a half a degree steeper headtube, as well as a shorter chain stay. The Holy Diver would appear to be better at twitchy and technical than the Titan.

The S&M is stamped “Made in USA,” while the Kink has a “Made in China” sticker on the bottom bracket housing.

The choice is clear.

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8/27/2019 6:13 PM

Furyus George wrote:

Both frame geometries look twitchy and technical, but the difference is subtle. If that’s what you’re looking for, the S&M has a higher bottom bracket and a half a degree steeper headtube, as well as a shorter chain stay. The Holy Diver would appear to be better at twitchy and technical than the Titan.

The S&M is stamped “Made in USA,” while the Kink has a “Made in China” sticker on the bottom bracket housing.

The choice is clear.


Please, show me where you have ever seen a Kink Titan frame of any version with a "made in china sticker". If you have seen that, it's not a genuine Kink titan frame.
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8/27/2019 6:26 PM

Furyus George wrote:

Both frame geometries look twitchy and technical, but the difference is subtle. If that’s what you’re looking for, the S&M has a higher bottom bracket and a half a degree steeper headtube, as well as a shorter chain stay. The Holy Diver would appear to be better at twitchy and technical than the Titan.

The S&M is stamped “Made in USA,” while the Kink has a “Made in China” sticker on the bottom bracket housing.

The choice is clear.

BillyBigRigger wrote:
Please, show me where you have ever seen a Kink Titan frame of any version with a "made in china sticker". If you have seen that, it's not a genuine Kink titan frame.

Flipping Kinks upside down at the local, and every one of them had made in China stickers, including the expensive Sexton’s. Surprised even the help at the shop. Not Taiwan, China. I’m pretty certain if the Titan was made in the USA, it would be common knowledge and marketed as such. Never seen a Titan in person, but based on the lack of marketing and the fact that all their bikes and accessories are Chinese, I’d say it’s a safe bet to conclude the Titan is Chinese as well.

Kink has some very aesthetically pleasing bikes and a pretty cool vibe. I like Kink. But they’re made in China.

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8/27/2019 6:47 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/27/2019 6:48 PM

Furyus George wrote:

Both frame geometries look twitchy and technical, but the difference is subtle. If that’s what you’re looking for, the S&M has a higher bottom bracket and a half a degree steeper headtube, as well as a shorter chain stay. The Holy Diver would appear to be better at twitchy and technical than the Titan.

The S&M is stamped “Made in USA,” while the Kink has a “Made in China” sticker on the bottom bracket housing.

The choice is clear.

BillyBigRigger wrote:
Please, show me where you have ever seen a Kink Titan frame of any version with a "made in china sticker". If you have seen that, it's not a genuine Kink titan frame.

Furyus George wrote:

Flipping Kinks upside down at the local, and every one of them had made in China stickers, including the expensive Sexton’s. Surprised even the help at the shop. Not Taiwan, China. I’m pretty certain if the Titan was made in the USA, it would be common knowledge and marketed as such. Never seen a Titan in person, but based on the lack of marketing and the fact that all their bikes and accessories are Chinese, I’d say it’s a safe bet to conclude the Titan is Chinese as well.

Kink has some very aesthetically pleasing bikes and a pretty cool vibe. I like Kink. But they’re made in China.

This is very disconcerting to me. Upon further inspection, I believe the only frame Kink makes that isn't made in China might be the Williams frame. I was under the impression that disclosure of the country of origin was required by law in America, yet we can't seem to find out what countrys are manufacturing these frames. Interesting. I will say, the Kink Williams does not share the same attributes as the backwoods, sexton, contender broadway etc etc....which leads me to think the Williams frame may be their only Taiwanese(or maybe ameican) frame and the others may be China, although I have no proof. Wonder if we can get a guy who works at a shop to confirm Manufacture of Origin on Kink frames. I'm curious now.

And yeh, I make it easy on myself for knowing where frames are manufactured as I only buy S/M frames lol....

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8/27/2019 7:27 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/27/2019 7:28 PM

BillyBigRigger wrote:

This is very disconcerting to me. Upon further inspection, I believe the only frame Kink makes that isn't made in China might be the Williams frame. I was under the impression that disclosure of the country of origin was required by law in America, yet we can't seem to find out what countrys are manufacturing these frames. Interesting. I will say, the Kink Williams does not share the same attributes as the backwoods, sexton, contender broadway etc etc....which leads me to think the Williams frame may be their only Taiwanese(or maybe ameican) frame and the others may be China, although I have no proof. Wonder if we can get a guy who works at a shop to confirm Manufacture of Origin on Kink frames. I'm curious now.

And yeh, I make it easy on myself for knowing where frames are manufactured as I only buy S/M frames lol....

Taiwan is part of China, as much as they dislike it

At the end of the day, as long as the quality is there, why does it matter where it came from?

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My Sunday Soundwave V3 Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork"
- grumpySteve

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!""
- Hunter S. Thompson

8/27/2019 7:33 PM

S&M uses ThermalX butted tubing...

I'm an S&M fanboy though, so I'm pretty biased. lol

The FBM Paradigm frame would be another good one to look at (almost the same specs as the S&M HD).

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8/27/2019 7:55 PM

Furyus George wrote:

Flipping Kinks upside down at the local, and every one of them had made in China stickers, including the expensive Sexton’s. Surprised even the help at the shop. Not Taiwan, China. I’m pretty certain if the Titan was made in the USA, it would be common knowledge and marketed as such. Never seen a Titan in person, but based on the lack of marketing and the fact that all their bikes and accessories are Chinese, I’d say it’s a safe bet to conclude the Titan is Chinese as well.

Kink has some very aesthetically pleasing bikes and a pretty cool vibe. I like Kink. But they’re made in China.

BillyBigRigger wrote:

This is very disconcerting to me. Upon further inspection, I believe the only frame Kink makes that isn't made in China might be the Williams frame. I was under the impression that disclosure of the country of origin was required by law in America, yet we can't seem to find out what countrys are manufacturing these frames. Interesting. I will say, the Kink Williams does not share the same attributes as the backwoods, sexton, contender broadway etc etc....which leads me to think the Williams frame may be their only Taiwanese(or maybe ameican) frame and the others may be China, although I have no proof. Wonder if we can get a guy who works at a shop to confirm Manufacture of Origin on Kink frames. I'm curious now.

And yeh, I make it easy on myself for knowing where frames are manufactured as I only buy S/M frames lol....

p1p1092 wrote:

Taiwan is part of China, as much as they dislike it

At the end of the day, as long as the quality is there, why does it matter where it came from?

It matters simply because the consumer should have a right to know where a product he is purchasing is manufactured at. That is all. That is why it matters.

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8/27/2019 8:52 PM

BillyBigRigger wrote:

It matters simply because the consumer should have a right to know where a product he is purchasing is manufactured at. That is all. That is why it matters.

I get that but again, if the quality is there, why should there be an issue? It's a reputable company outsourcing their manufacturing, just like most other companies(and probably even in the same factory as those other companies).

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My Sunday Soundwave V3 Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork"
- grumpySteve

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!""
- Hunter S. Thompson

8/28/2019 12:08 AM

Taiwan had their bicycle factories heavily subsidized by the government. Many resources were invested into their bicycle manufacturing industry. George French talked about this as being the major factor in the decision to manufacture Odyssey/Gsport in Taiwan. Plenty of other high quality road/MTB companies build their parts there as well. I just wouldn't expect a Chinese build to compare.

That said, I buy American because I like to support my countrymen--but I don't think there is a difference in quality.

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8/28/2019 1:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 1:44 AM

The gypsy frames and bars are made in China, pretty sure the recent united frames are made in the same factory, hence the low price. Although every one of the recent united frames I’ve seen had shocking looking welds, I haven’t heard of any, or the gypsy frames failing.

I don’t think there’s a noticeable difference in quality between Taiwanese or American made. There’s too many variables to consider. Most S&m frames I’ve seen had questionable looking welds, but they held up. The welds on all my fbm frames look amazing. And the quality of materials is better with American made. But a nice looking weld doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good weld. Even though the Taiwanese welders aren’t riders, the owners of the manufacturing company isn’t a rider, they still specialise in manufacturing.

I support brands that I think are doing good things in bmx, by supporting scenes, and riders I think deserve it. Even all the American made brands still get the majority of their products made overseas (small parts like seats, posts, bb’s, headsets etc. They’re all just rebranded). And that’s what they probably have a larger profit margin on. No matter what you buy, you’re supporting the brand that has their logo on it.

It’s probably more important to think about where you’re buying from. Core bmx shops struggle. They’re the ones that support local scenes and help out riders. Most are owned by some guy who loves bmx, and probably make enough money to scrape by and put food on the table for their family.

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8/28/2019 5:11 AM

Furyus George wrote:

Flipping Kinks upside down at the local, and every one of them had made in China stickers, including the expensive Sexton’s. Surprised even the help at the shop. Not Taiwan, China. I’m pretty certain if the Titan was made in the USA, it would be common knowledge and marketed as such. Never seen a Titan in person, but based on the lack of marketing and the fact that all their bikes and accessories are Chinese, I’d say it’s a safe bet to conclude the Titan is Chinese as well.

Kink has some very aesthetically pleasing bikes and a pretty cool vibe. I like Kink. But they’re made in China.

BillyBigRigger wrote:

This is very disconcerting to me. Upon further inspection, I believe the only frame Kink makes that isn't made in China might be the Williams frame. I was under the impression that disclosure of the country of origin was required by law in America, yet we can't seem to find out what countrys are manufacturing these frames. Interesting. I will say, the Kink Williams does not share the same attributes as the backwoods, sexton, contender broadway etc etc....which leads me to think the Williams frame may be their only Taiwanese(or maybe ameican) frame and the others may be China, although I have no proof. Wonder if we can get a guy who works at a shop to confirm Manufacture of Origin on Kink frames. I'm curious now.

And yeh, I make it easy on myself for knowing where frames are manufactured as I only buy S/M frames lol....

p1p1092 wrote:

Taiwan is part of China, as much as they dislike it

At the end of the day, as long as the quality is there, why does it matter where it came from?

You are correct. But, to me (and many other Americans... not so much for you "foreigners" LOL) I'd rather support a company that is using American skilled labor.

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8/28/2019 7:30 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 7:35 AM

Furyus George wrote:

Flipping Kinks upside down at the local, and every one of them had made in China stickers, including the expensive Sexton’s. Surprised even the help at the shop. Not Taiwan, China. I’m pretty certain if the Titan was made in the USA, it would be common knowledge and marketed as such. Never seen a Titan in person, but based on the lack of marketing and the fact that all their bikes and accessories are Chinese, I’d say it’s a safe bet to conclude the Titan is Chinese as well.

Kink has some very aesthetically pleasing bikes and a pretty cool vibe. I like Kink. But they’re made in China.

BillyBigRigger wrote:

This is very disconcerting to me. Upon further inspection, I believe the only frame Kink makes that isn't made in China might be the Williams frame. I was under the impression that disclosure of the country of origin was required by law in America, yet we can't seem to find out what countrys are manufacturing these frames. Interesting. I will say, the Kink Williams does not share the same attributes as the backwoods, sexton, contender broadway etc etc....which leads me to think the Williams frame may be their only Taiwanese(or maybe ameican) frame and the others may be China, although I have no proof. Wonder if we can get a guy who works at a shop to confirm Manufacture of Origin on Kink frames. I'm curious now.

And yeh, I make it easy on myself for knowing where frames are manufactured as I only buy S/M frames lol....

p1p1092 wrote:

Taiwan is part of China, as much as they dislike it

At the end of the day, as long as the quality is there, why does it matter where it came from?

I understand your point of view. I respect it. Myself, however, I try to use my dollar to support domestic manufacturing when possible but I will ALWAYS buy from Countries other than China when I have an option of similar products to choose from. My main root of it is watching the Chinese at trade shows(heavy equipment, mining, and industrial trucking). Lots of research and design go into new equipment releases from reputable companies and the Chinese will send in “ spies” to slyly be eyeing them up immediately taking photos, with protractors, angle finders, rulers, gauges, inclinometers, calipers, lasers just to go back to China and build an exact copy of a Caterpillar, Komatsu, or Kobelco product at 1/3 the cost made like shit. It’s sleezy. It’s just morally and ethically disgusting. That’s why I would like to know the country of origin when it comes to bike frames. I don’t judge others riding Chinese bikes. I’m sure the quality is there and the product sales help many Americans. But Chinese made frames are not for me personally and I want to know where they originate manufacture.

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8/28/2019 7:33 AM

FBM Paradigm ...

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8/28/2019 8:58 AM

Taiwan > America

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8/28/2019 9:31 AM

Taiwan > China

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8/28/2019 9:53 AM

I would say s&m after my experience with kink

I cannot wait to ditch this contender frame and get something else

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old edit

8/28/2019 3:00 PM

Brandon9412 wrote:

I’m going to keep this real simple. I’ve been riding the same bike since I was 16 years old (I’m now 25) and I want to build a new bike. I’ve got the frame narrowed down to 2: the S&M Holy Diver frame in a 20.5 tt and the Kink Titan 2 frame in a 20.5 tt. Both in black. Can I get some opinions? Also, if I’m overlooking a good frame I’ll take recommendations as well. I’d like to keep it American made in case I have to deal with any customer support due to breakage inside warranty, that sort of stuff. Thanks

I don't really like fit or kink that much but honestly just choose whatever geo you like the most

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8/29/2019 6:03 AM

I'd go with whichever i got the screaming deal on. how it always works out for me.

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8/31/2019 9:32 PM

I'd personally go with the Kink just cuz I like the geo better.
They're a great company with great products and their heavy hitting team should be a testament to their quality regardless of where their parts are made. I wouldnt choose one over the other based on country of manufacture in this case.
If you cant tell what you like better, than just go for the one with the best resell value or warranty or price tag.

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