Over thinking everything

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7/29/2018 7:35 AM

So, I've been thinking this a while. I myself am really particular about geometry and how my bike is set up. But does it really matter? Do we constantly just use it as an excuse? My bike is pretty drastically different to any modern street set up. Yet a kid at my local park can jump on it and send bars over the box jump.
I was thinking about the custom frame thread, and what I'd want to change if I go custom again. Then measured my actual bb to axle length and my wheel is at 13.75 (maybe a tiny bit shorter) which is what I wanted if I were to go custom again. Then I thought about how .1" or .2" on the chainstay makes zero difference because your wheels position is determined by the length of the chain needed to go round your sprocket and driver.

If you were to go from one extreme to the next, you'd notice it. But I think 5mm in bar height doesn't make the tiniest bit of difference after the first couple of rides.

I think I genuinely feel more of a difference between having a good day or bad day than the tiny differences in bike set up that we beat ourselves up over. At the end of the day, you should be able to get used to any bike and still do the same things.

Discuss?

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7/29/2018 7:37 AM

rider skills / confidence will always win vs anything else.

But... you knew that.

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7/29/2018 7:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/29/2018 7:52 AM

pnj wrote:

rider skills / confidence will always win vs anything else.

But... you knew that.

Yeah definitely, but do you think we over think it? With these really short chainstays and wacky headtube angles, do you really think it makes someone better at riding? Or is it just a marketing competition? The frames thread has some ludicrous ideas that I think would feel terrible and are literally just ideas that haven't really been thought about. If it was really that much better, wouldn't the bike companies have already thought of it years ago?

Does one less half link in your chain make that much difference?

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7/29/2018 8:41 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/29/2018 8:52 AM

I am definitively in the "we over think geometry" camp. But I feel, as you do, that the drastic changes (i.e. 13.2" CS - 14" cs, 9"-10" bar height, etc...) are what you feel. BUT I also feel that you can get used to ANY configuration in short time. So, any adult of normal height range.. Say 5'8"- 6'2", could adapt to nearly any variation in frame geometry. Back in the day, nobody even measured tt, CS, bb height, etc...; we just rode whatever was the coolest setup a magazine raved about.

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7/29/2018 8:49 AM

Pretty much spot on with the opening post. Of course having proper gear will help your riding by making it safer and easier. I mean things like having a solid frame that won't bend or crack on you, good pedals so you stay on, sticky grips so you can hold on to the bars, bike not being excessively heavy etc. But it's definitely easy to go overboard with the "fine tuning".

I've felt kinda lost lately in the bmx scene where everyone knows the exact measurements of their bike and I barely know the length of my top tube. I understand it's super easy to get hyped on customizing everything to be perfect but in the end, skill and confidence always wins and a professional is a professional on most if not any bike. Not that I know anything about that but I'd imaginegrin

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7/29/2018 9:34 AM

It honestly just depends...

It wasn't until I started growing past 6' that TT length and bar height became super important to me, but at the same time that's when more brands started making frames in 21.5"+ TT and bars in the 9"-10" height.

Imo, dialed geo could be the difference between riding your bike for an hour and stopping vs. riding the entire day (regardless if your good at riding, or not), but you have to run into a problem first to even get to that point.

My current frame geo has actually been pretty dialed for me and my custom geo in the frame thread is basically my same frame, but with a half degree slacker HTA and a .25" longer TT to make up for it (I honestly have zero need for a custom frame though).

These days the only geo things I really think about are bar/ stem height related, but It usually ends with me saying I don't really need it...

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7/29/2018 9:45 AM

Bryan91 wrote:

It honestly just depends...

It wasn't until I started growing past 6' that TT length and bar height became super important to ...more

Now that you brought it up, looking it from that perspective I understand customizing your bike more. Doing a trick with bike X or bike Y might be the same but riding a bike that's the wrong size or not comfy will obviously affect your riding in long term.

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7/29/2018 10:14 AM

I have 2 very different feeling bikes which I use for specific things but I could do everything on both but I’d rather not. I like having the right tool for the job, certain things are definitely easier on certain setups. Your always compromising on either responsiveness vs stability with any geometry, and that’s always going to be personal preference.

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Ride everything

7/29/2018 10:57 AM

Jibby wrote:

I have 2 very different feeling bikes which I use for specific things but I could do everything on both but I’d rather not. I ...more

But you could build one bike that would be good for both.
I had 2 bikes at one point and they weren't even very different, but felt like it was pointless to have 2 because you're never really used to both of them. There'll always be one that you ride more, so the other would feel slightly alien.

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7/29/2018 11:04 AM

Bryan91 wrote:

It honestly just depends...

It wasn't until I started growing past 6' that TT length and bar height became super important to ...more

Rabbe wrote:

Now that you brought it up, looking it from that perspective I understand customizing your bike more. Doing a trick with bike ...more

If you have one bike that's set up correctly, you won't have or need to compare it to anything else. Obviously there's plenty of choice on the market, so we can dial our bikes in, but if you then start thinking about changing one thing by a few mm, will it really make a difference?

Everyone has a frame they used to love, but I bet its different to what they ride now, because the trends make us want to try different geometry. But is it really the different geometry that helps us improve?
I can relate because I loved my s&m pbr I had when I was in my prime. So thinking logically, I should get a frame with the same geometry? And set the bike up the same? But I think I'd hate it now.

And the frame I had before my current one was drastically different, with higher bars too. I can do the exact same tricks on both, and to be honest probably rode "better" with that frame, but it wasn't as enjoyable to ride

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7/29/2018 11:29 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

If you have one bike that's set up correctly, you won't have or need to compare it to anything else. Obviously there's plenty ...more

My only focus with my current bike is something that can ride street, dirt, park and still be comfortable to ride all day.

That's basically how It's become what it is today.

Also, I tried flipping my 10mm spacer above my stem recently to roughly replicate 9.5" bars and It was livable, but at the same time noticeable. lol

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7/29/2018 12:14 PM

Rabbe wrote:

Now that you brought it up, looking it from that perspective I understand customizing your bike more. Doing a trick with bike ...more

grumpySteve wrote:

If you have one bike that's set up correctly, you won't have or need to compare it to anything else. Obviously there's plenty ...more

Bryan91 wrote:

My only focus with my current bike is something that can ride street, dirt, park and still be comfortable to ride all day.

...more

This is exactly what I mean. You've spent time building your bike and dialling it in. One bike that's perfect for you. Surely that's all any of us need? But then we think about "what if I could get an extra half a link out of the chain", or "what if my headangle was .5° steeper. But I think it really doesn't make any difference once you're used to the bike.

I've tried the tall bars thing, and it did feel much more comfortable for the commute to work. But I'm still stuck in the low bars days, and they made everything more effort (twitcher balancing, too easy to pull up when wanting to do high hops).

I think if everyone had very average geometry based on their height (and a bit of personal preference). They'll be just as good on that than what they think will be better.

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7/29/2018 12:25 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/29/2018 12:29 PM

80% of this forum overthink specifications , I honestly doubt most people will feel .5 of a degree , yet people on this forum claim otherwise. I mean everyone is different but I feel most of it is a placebo effect , unless you've been riding bikes for many many years , I think people will just like the feel of a newer frame , and not necessarily notice the .5 degree change... its just a new feeling if you understand me . I only really feel chainstay lengths , which is why I want to try the new Doomsayer with crazy specs because maybe then I'd notice it more . No one here is doing flairwhips or triple trucks so personally we shouldnt act like the smallest change drastically affects the bike , when we barely do stuff to fully understand all the changes. It bugs me when people go off about having 7 frames because they can't find one that "suites them" but then you see them comment about not being able to throw barspins or barely get 180's consistent. Like it isnt the frame that'll change your riding skills

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Instagram : braydenbuckingham
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7/29/2018 1:24 PM

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

80% of this forum overthink specifications , I honestly doubt most people will feel .5 of a degree , yet people on this forum ...more

That's it. A new frame with certain geometry doesn't mean anyone will automatically be able to do more tricks. Buying the doomsayer won't make you ride like Jordan Godwin wink
Anything you change for a positive reason, will also have a negative affect.

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7/29/2018 1:34 PM

I have a few different bikes with a few different geometry specs. It's kind of like anything else if you ride it long enough you get used to it and you can do everything that you normally can on your main rider. Sometimes if I ride a longer frame long enough and then I go to a short frame I can spin a lot better and the rotation is a lot easier. And sometimes I Loop out. But once you're used to it again it's just like any other frame.

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7/29/2018 3:27 PM

Preference =/= ability to ride. I probably COULD learn how to ride with apehangers and 12" backends but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna absolutely hate it. There's nothing wrong with having preference. On the flip side diving way deep into the geometry game is not gonna improve anyone's riding if they can already pull the moves.

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7/29/2018 3:42 PM

I've had about 30 frames trying to find one for everything. I dont think that it makes you a better rider but more comfortable. If it's more comfortable it's going to make you feel better on the bike. I hate riding huge long frames but i can still do tricks on them but it's so uncomfortable I dont want to ride.

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7/29/2018 4:04 PM

I agree that some of it is in our heads. I know with me I feel stuff. Like when I went from my Kink Titan II to T1 Skapegoat. Besides the weight, everything felt a little bigger and harder to do. My manuals and hops took alot more effort and it's mainly because the CSL went up.

I also fell the difference in bar height as well. 8.75 was killing my back. 9.5 and 10 help it. I think that a 74.5 hta isn't gonna feel that much different from the 75 though. Same thing with STA. I think Top Tube, CSL, and SOH on a frame are the only things you can feel really. I think bar height is more for comfort than performance.

With that being said though kids in this age don't care about none of that. Hop whips and 180 bars are intermediate tricks now to them. They only care about companies and who rides what frame. I don't even think they know what frame geo is. LOL. All they know is that its a bike. Do get discouraged.

Sidenote: I thought this was about overthinking tricks. LOL

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7/29/2018 7:03 PM

I feel the same, there’s honestly barely any difference in some frames that have minute measurements like the Dagger, seriously, you aren’t gonna feel an extra .3 degrees in your head tube dude, .5 is a stretch. Sure, there’s a BIG difference between 13.7 CS and 12.7 CS, but a B.B. of 11.5 and 11.4 doesn’t have a real difference (I’m looking at you Hoffman Bama and Lady Luck...). Top tube is the only property that drastically changes with every half inch. CS changes drastically about every .75-1 inches.

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Gave up on BMX to hang out with 13 year old soundcloud rappers, what a life, such a cool guy!
-Sheldon on Adam22

"The only future for BMX"

Yeah, kids getting shit bikes, breaking them and then quitting. LOL
-jbales on mafiaBIKES

I’ve been a 14 year old beginner for the last ten years
-adamnmexican

7/29/2018 7:05 PM

WiteMic wrote:

I agree that some of it is in our heads. I know with me I feel stuff. Like when I went from my Kink Titan II to T1 Skapegoat. ...more

You won’t feel the difference in HTA consciously which is what matters, but you’ll feel it subconsciously.

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Gave up on BMX to hang out with 13 year old soundcloud rappers, what a life, such a cool guy!
-Sheldon on Adam22

"The only future for BMX"

Yeah, kids getting shit bikes, breaking them and then quitting. LOL
-jbales on mafiaBIKES

I’ve been a 14 year old beginner for the last ten years
-adamnmexican

7/30/2018 1:08 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/30/2018 1:09 AM

Like someone said already, I gotta say I'm calling placebo effect on many of the small changes one can make in their bike that's supposed to make it feel different. I'd even say for the average rider two of the same setups could feel different if someone convinces them there's a difference. People are funny that way, if someone tells you "yeah this is gonna make your hops so much higher" then it actually might but it doesn't mean it has anything to do with the bike.

That said, of course there is a point where a modification to certain measurements will easily be felt and will also affect your riding. Will it make you a clearly better rider? Probably not, unless you hate the original one and making the change makes you ride a lot more.

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7/30/2018 1:55 AM

I defenitely noticed all of the major changes i did on my bike in the last 3 years!
Couldn't even imagine riding the old setup for even a day.

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IG: @_almost_crook

7/30/2018 2:07 AM

booze wrote:

I defenitely noticed all of the major changes i did on my bike in the last 3 years!
Couldn't even imagine riding the old setup ...more

How much of a change did you make? I'm talking about the tiny little changes, like quarter inch difference in cs length, which will probably only be a half link, or even a quarter inch in bar height. I think once you're used to it, it doesn't really matter or make a substantial difference

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7/30/2018 4:39 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/30/2018 4:42 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

How much of a change did you make? I'm talking about the tiny little changes, like quarter inch difference in cs length, which ...more

Switched from Fit Aitken S2i (21") to Federal DLX (20,75") to Subrosa OM (20,5").
Switched from 8,25 Slam Bars to 8,75 Subrosa Noster Bars.
Switched from 32mm forks with cutted steering tube (stem slammed), to 25mm once with uncut steering tube.
Switched from 175mm to 165mm cranks.

Since I ride with the uncut steering tube, my front is a bit too high for me.
Will switch back to 8,25" as soon as the 4a.m. bars from animal are available.

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IG: @_almost_crook

7/30/2018 11:59 AM

I ride a frame with a 20.75tt, 75.5hta, and 12.75CS. It seems to me that it is much harder to hop without looping out and I have had no luck with manuals on this setup. I run a top load with 9.5"bars and was wondering if lowering the front end slightly would make this better or worse? I love how the steep angle on the front end feels and the bike spins well, it just seems to loop out way too easily. Geometry or bad form?

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7/30/2018 1:24 PM

Different geometry does help for certain riders/riding styles.

I have only been riding for a short time but I am able to feel slight differences. Angles, weights, shapes, widths, heights, etc.

Something a lot of people dont take into account is tires can change how you bike handles as well. Not just talking about weight, speed or steering. The height of your tires when inflated can bring your bike higher up in the front or just plain overall.

Your grips being thicker or thinner can make your bar feel slightly taller or shorter.

Different pedal widths and thicknesses can make your bike feel a bit more trail or street.

Its not something to absolutely obsess over, but I think it is very important to make an informed purchase, especially because these parts arent cheap.

I agree with you about the chainstays though for the most part. However, as you know, some people do run their chains looser than some for certain tricks or out of lazyness.

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7/30/2018 1:46 PM

Mishinn_Control wrote:

I am definitively in the "we over think geometry" camp. But I feel, as you do, that the drastic changes (i.e. 13.2" CS - 14" ...more

You and Steve are both right and wrong. It comes down to the rider. Some can’t tell the difference between a 21 top tube and a 20.5...literally no idea it’s different. Riding as long as I have I rode a 21.25 when I had a Gack frame (used). And I could do anything on it I wanted no different than my old 20.75 I had prior. And it’s the same thing today until I get on like a 20.5...it’s too short. I can ride it, but my heel hits the peg, knee at times will smack the stem (worst thing ever!!!) and stuff like that. But duh ? if you are a certain height it’s going to happen.

However, unlike some I can feel different geo and frame size just sitting on it. I don’t get scared or can’t ride it. But, I can notice very slight changes. I have been able to since after my first 4yrs riding maybe a bit before. So it comes down to the riders and what they think or can feel. After a bit you should have zero problem with any size frame or a different geo. But many riders are so convinced that the part, frame, whatever will work best for them. When in reality you should have no issue (minus the height factor) on any frame or part doing the SAME things that you do now. A steeper HT is not going to make you some front wheel trick master for example. If you can’t do stuff on the front wheel well... it might give you a mental edge. But, at best it’s only going to help you 2-5%. So, it’s literally in your head. If you can (example) not hang 5, I don’t care what angle you run in front. You will still have to learn it like anyone else. Look around people do nose stuff with 74 HTs, mountain bike guys who do that stuff have a say 72 or less HT.

It’s all in your mind about it helping or hindering you. So, ride what you LIKE and don’t buy into the hype about parts, frames, offsets and all of that. At the end of the day it’s you as a rider not the bike.

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8/8/2018 6:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/8/2018 6:57 AM

Sorry for the late reply lol

But for me, If I'm having a hard time with a trick, I don't blame it ok the geometry of my bike, I think, well I should hop a little higher so I can rotate that 360 better, or I should carve more to do this trick. Or I should move my weight back to do this trick...

That's what I do. I don't blame the geo of my bike... I've sometimes thought, I wonder if a shorter chainstay would make that easier or would a higher bottom bra let help this more. But I never blame the geometry. If I can land a trick, it's my fault, not my bikes fault.

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I don't crash, I do random gravity checks...

8/8/2018 8:20 AM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

Sorry for the late reply lol

But for me, If I'm having a hard time with a trick, I don't blame it ok the geometry of my bike, ...more

My thoughts exactly

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8/8/2018 8:37 AM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

Sorry for the late reply lol

But for me, If I'm having a hard time with a trick, I don't blame it ok the geometry of my bike, ...more

Yeah that's exactly my thought. We have preferences, but little changes don't make it automatically easier to do something. Once you're used to the set up and get it how you like the feel of it, we should be able to do anything

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