Raider or Safari?

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5/1/2017 7:00 AM

Hi i was hoping someone could give me some advice on what bmx frame to buy.
Im 6.3 and still noob at bmx but i want to get more into it.
The main things i want to do are manual and bhop tricks but also to just be quite comfortable just riding around.
I used to have a 21tt 13.25 rear but i didnt like it.
These are the 2 frames im looking at.

http://www.sourcebmx.com/en/BSD-Raider-V3-Frame/m-32413.aspx 21.6tt
http://www.sourcebmx.com/en/BSD-Safari-Frame/m-32412.aspx 21.8tt

thanks

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5/1/2017 7:30 AM

I personally would recommend the raider out of those 2. You might struggle with weight distribution with a short chainstay like the safari. Plus long chainstay equals better balanced manuals and higher hops

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5/1/2017 7:39 AM

Had raider bars and they were probably my favourite bars ever

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Instagram : braydenbuckingham
My Cult 2 Short

5/1/2017 8:45 AM

I'm 6'3 as well, 21.8 is long, perhaps even to long. 21.6 is well roomy. I've rode my other raider frame in trans black and it was extremely stable and has perfect leverage for lots of pop. I rode it with a 53mm stem at first, then 50mm and onto a 48mm as well..

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5/1/2017 5:11 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/1/2017 5:12 PM

Reed Stark is super tall and rocks the Safari (duh) and he's a rad Minnesota dude.

What didn't you like about the frame you mentioned?

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5/1/2017 5:36 PM

I'm also 6'3" and have been riding a 21.5" frame for about 2yrs.

I have a 55mm reach stem and keep my bars almost straight up & down, so if I was going to use a 50mm-ish, or less stem and liked my bars more parallel to the forks, I'd go for the 21.8" Safari.

At 6'3" you really can't go wrong with either one.

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5/2/2017 12:19 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/2/2017 12:21 AM

dave lawrence wrote:

Reed Stark is super tall and rocks the Safari (duh) and he's a rad Minnesota dude.

What didn't you like about the frame you mentioned?

I felt way to cramped on it and i looped out super easy.

So you think the safari is better or is it more of an expert level frame considering the short chainstay?

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5/2/2017 3:01 AM

Both of those frames will be great, the main difference is the chainstays lenght.
What didn't you like on your 21" / 13.25" frame, not roomy enough ?(obviously) too short in the back ? or something else ?

I personnaly ride a 21.4" safari (I'm 6.1") and I tried every possible chainstays configuration on it, short 13.1" and 13.25" and middle 13.4" whatever lenght you ride the global feeling is a roomy and stable frame but still quick enough to be trhown around easily (unlike most tall frames who are long front and back, so it ends up in a sluggish bike good for riding bowl or trails but not really street friendly).

About manuals, someone mentionned a weird weight distribution with a tall front end and a short back end, well, not that much with my setup, but I could definatly see that coming with the 21.8" version, the wheel set at 13" and a low bar.
I played with my bar height and angle to find the perfect balance point for manuals (a few millimeters makes all the difference)
Too low and I feel the balance point but I feel the front wheel wants to go down (so I add 2mm and pull my bars back a little) and if too high I just don't like my ride.

But my main problem with that frame about manuals more than a weird weight distribution or anything is the high BB, all my frames before this one were 11.5" and it was so much easier to put pressure on the BB and so to hold manuals. I'm now kind of used to the high BB but it took a while.

Reed Stark rides his 21.8" Safari with the bsd stem (33mm rise) + a 9.5" bar on top on a tall headtube (no room for useless spacers on this frame) so he's super high, and my guess is riding a super high bar is what it takes to ride that 21.8" version comfortabily.

So the Safari is an awesome frame, the Raider too, I gave you my personnal experience with the safari, my advice if you go for the Safari might be to downsize and get a 21.4".

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5/18/2017 6:39 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

I personally would recommend the raider out of those 2. You might struggle with weight distribution with a short chainstay like the safari. Plus long chainstay equals better balanced manuals and higher hops

Don't mean to be argumentative but I've found the opposite to be true. I struggled with learning manuals for a year and got them within 2 months after I went from a 13.75 rear to a 13.2. Everything feels easier to me with a shorter backend and jumping turning all seems to take more effort when I ride long cs frames. a lot of frames also advertise having a shorter end for more pop. I've never done the math but it does make the back end lighter and more responsive which kind of translates into what you're looking for with "pop". I know Rob Wise runs a 14+ rear and says it gives him more hop though...

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5/18/2017 8:20 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

I personally would recommend the raider out of those 2. You might struggle with weight distribution with a short chainstay like the safari. Plus long chainstay equals better balanced manuals and higher hops

Sean_Goff wrote:

Don't mean to be argumentative but I've found the opposite to be true. I struggled with learning manuals for a year and got them within 2 months after I went from a 13.75 rear to a 13.2. Everything feels easier to me with a shorter backend and jumping turning all seems to take more effort when I ride long cs frames. a lot of frames also advertise having a shorter end for more pop. I've never done the math but it does make the back end lighter and more responsive which kind of translates into what you're looking for with "pop". I know Rob Wise runs a 14+ rear and says it gives him more hop though...

I agree with this. I recently switched from a 14+ chainstay to 13.4ish where I run my wheel. I had manuals pretty good before with the old frame, but now i'm locked in every time. The front end comes up so easy that I've had to dial in hop manuals a bit, but all in all, the shorter back ends are sick.

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5/18/2017 11:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/18/2017 12:02 PM

I think you would like the raider better. I recently went from a 13.2 rear to a 13.75 rear, and I'm really loving it. Everything feels so.much better. My hops feel higher, everything feels more stable. I don't think the Safari is different enough from your current geometry. It will feel very similar. Get the raider. That's my choice. BSD makes some solid shit. I love my acid forks.they feel so solid, and stiff compared to my kink foundation forks, that flex like crazy.

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5/18/2017 12:57 PM

switching from a 13.75-14 cs to 13.2 is gonna make manuals a lot easier to learn. the keyword is to learn. i went from a v1 broadcaster, running my wheel at 13", to a t-1 hickerson, running the wheel right around 14". manuals were way too touchy on my broadcaster. the longer cs means that once you find your balance point its easier to stay locked in, VS a short cs where you can get into a manual easy but its easy to loop out or drop it as well

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5/19/2017 12:42 AM

13.6 chainstay length to 13.25 and its shit for manuals and hops , longer chainstay length feels better . Everything locks in better and park feels more fluid

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Instagram : braydenbuckingham
My Cult 2 Short

5/19/2017 1:38 AM

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

13.6 chainstay length to 13.25 and its shit for manuals and hops , longer chainstay length feels better . Everything locks in better and park feels more fluid

I'm with you dude. I'll never ride anything less than 13.5. I think that's the perfect middle ground. All these crazy short frames are for kids.

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5/21/2017 7:41 AM

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

13.6 chainstay length to 13.25 and its shit for manuals and hops , longer chainstay length feels better . Everything locks in better and park feels more fluid

ggallin422 wrote:

I'm with you dude. I'll never ride anything less than 13.5. I think that's the perfect middle ground. All these crazy short frames are for kids.

just cuz it's hard for you to perfprm on short cs doesn't mean it is for others.it looks like its really just where a person is comfortable blalancing.. for me I don't mind tackling a bit of twitch at high speeds in favor of ease at lower ones but it sounds like youre more comfortable with the balance point for long rear ends. also I'm 32 so not really in the kid range anymore. =)

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5/21/2017 9:35 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

I personally would recommend the raider out of those 2. You might struggle with weight distribution with a short chainstay like the safari. Plus long chainstay equals better balanced manuals and higher hops

Sean_Goff wrote:

Don't mean to be argumentative but I've found the opposite to be true. I struggled with learning manuals for a year and got them within 2 months after I went from a 13.75 rear to a 13.2. Everything feels easier to me with a shorter backend and jumping turning all seems to take more effort when I ride long cs frames. a lot of frames also advertise having a shorter end for more pop. I've never done the math but it does make the back end lighter and more responsive which kind of translates into what you're looking for with "pop". I know Rob Wise runs a 14+ rear and says it gives him more hop though...

Well, it's a personal preference thing really. For a tall person, their body's frame would sit much further back whilst in the manual position, that's the only reason I'd say it would be more suitable for tall people.
If it's easier to lift the front end, it's easier to loop out. Plus, the speed your travelling also has a big impact on how stable you want your bike. I personally don't do anything going really slow, so I'd rather have the stability. Again, it's personal.
As for pop, longer chainstays give a higher hop. That's just a fact of frame geometry. But that's not to say you can learn or adjust your technique to get a high hop with a short chainstay.
I'm also not trying to argue, just state my opinion from my personal experience, and what I personally prefer.
We're all different, with different body shapes, and different preferences. Non of us can tell someone else exactly what will be better for them
smile

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5/21/2017 10:48 AM

you also might want to look into the passenger. its kind of in between the raider, and safari, geometry wise. ive been seriously looking at them myself. id love a nice bsd frame. they really do make the most solid stuff.

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5/21/2017 6:14 PM

bmxfromma wrote:

switching from a 13.75-14 cs to 13.2 is gonna make manuals a lot easier to learn. the keyword is to learn. i went from a v1 broadcaster, running my wheel at 13", to a t-1 hickerson, running the wheel right around 14". manuals were way too touchy on my broadcaster. the longer cs means that once you find your balance point its easier to stay locked in, VS a short cs where you can get into a manual easy but its easy to loop out or drop it as well

So if it makes them easier to learn, what happens after I learn them? Do they get harder? Lol just messin with you, it's a trade off both sides. I guess try them both, pick one you like and have fun.

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5/21/2017 6:29 PM

Honestly, I did that for about 2 years after reading so many different posts about geometry pros and cons so I bought cheap parts and bikes on eBay and Craigslist. I ended up trying 4 different frames, 3 forks, 3 sets of cranks and 4 bars and 3 stems all with different geos and specs till i got a feel for what I liked and disliked with each. It's helped make it a lot easier to know what to invest in now and how to get get the feel I'm looking for. What I've found is that it really is a trade off between slow and kinda sluggish feeling but stable vs. fast and more responsive feeling but less stable in just about any geo.

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5/21/2017 10:38 PM

Sean_Goff wrote:

Honestly, I did that for about 2 years after reading so many different posts about geometry pros and cons so I bought cheap parts and bikes on eBay and Craigslist. I ended up trying 4 different frames, 3 forks, 3 sets of cranks and 4 bars and 3 stems all with different geos and specs till i got a feel for what I liked and disliked with each. It's helped make it a lot easier to know what to invest in now and how to get get the feel I'm looking for. What I've found is that it really is a trade off between slow and kinda sluggish feeling but stable vs. fast and more responsive feeling but less stable in just about any geo.

People think too much about geometry now (myself included). But, there's a few things they still don't take into consideration. Bb height seems to get over looked a lot. I don't get the point of these street frames with short chainstays and steep headangles that also have a low bb.
It wasn't until after I got my frame that I noticed how there's a few things that really don't matter all that much. I went from 13.25 to 13.365. I didn't like it slammed on the shorter chainstay, which is why I went a touch longer (so my wheel wasn't right at the back of the dropouts). But, if I add 1 half link, my wheel sits in the same place as some trails frames. So the difference is literally half a link between a "street" frame and a "trails" frame in some cases.

I think a lot of people buy a frame based on how the geometry is marketed to them. But all brands are following the same trends. As many frames as there are on the market, there's still not many good all rounders. And I think a lot of people only believe certain geometry is good because it's trendy and how it's marketed. I went just a little bit different with my frame, it wouldn't really appeal to the street guys or the trails guys. Yet every single person that's had a go thinks it feels spot on, that's even with my unfashionably low bars.

I guess the point of this post is to agree with you and just say that people need to play around with geometry to find what they like. I personally couldn't stand the feel of a modern street frame, even though street is my thing.

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5/23/2017 7:07 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/23/2017 7:11 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

People think too much about geometry now (myself included). But, there's a few things they still don't take into consideration. Bb height seems to get over looked a lot. I don't get the point of these street frames with short chainstays and steep headangles that also have a low bb.
It wasn't until after I got my frame that I noticed how there's a few things that really don't matter all that much. I went from 13.25 to 13.365. I didn't like it slammed on the shorter chainstay, which is why I went a touch longer (so my wheel wasn't right at the back of the dropouts). But, if I add 1 half link, my wheel sits in the same place as some trails frames. So the difference is literally half a link between a "street" frame and a "trails" frame in some cases.

I think a lot of people buy a frame based on how the geometry is marketed to them. But all brands are following the same trends. As many frames as there are on the market, there's still not many good all rounders. And I think a lot of people only believe certain geometry is good because it's trendy and how it's marketed. I went just a little bit different with my frame, it wouldn't really appeal to the street guys or the trails guys. Yet every single person that's had a go thinks it feels spot on, that's even with my unfashionably low bars.

I guess the point of this post is to agree with you and just say that people need to play around with geometry to find what they like. I personally couldn't stand the feel of a modern street frame, even though street is my thing.

I feel you on the BB height. I tried 11.5/6/625/7/8 and in the end had to be with the .65 I feel like if I could only change 2 things on any geo and that's it, I would definitely have to go with rear end length and BB height. I feel more fussy about those 2 things than any other when it comes to Geo. Also while I haven't adjusted to them to well, 11.5 bbs do feel very comfy and consistent. Not really my bag though as far as control goes.

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