S&M Dagger vs Holy Diver vs ATF

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8/29/2019 6:00 PM

I really like the geo of the Holy Diver but unfortunately it doesn’t have integrated chain tensioners. Same with ATF. The Dagger does however have integrated tensioners but I’m not sure how I feel about the geo. It’s pretty extreme park geo. I’ve even seen some people online using it for flatland. I do a little bit of everything so I’m not sure how that frame would be on street or in dirt. Anyone ridden any of those frames?

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8/29/2019 7:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/29/2019 7:01 PM

Well there's a local kid around here who rides dirt and he's super super good, very freaking stylish just a type of guy I wish I could look like flowing around on dirt jumps. He rides a Dagger. However I've seen him at the skatepark a few times on it and he doesn't seem to ride at all just use it as a seat at the park. So, guess it'll work fine on dirt as this guy I speak of flats kills it.

That being said, a good rider can do anything on proabaly all sorts of different geo's. I've got an ATF and I really loved that frame. The ATF is kinda polar opposite of the Dagger though geo wise.

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8/29/2019 7:38 PM

Just tighten your nuts/bolts properly

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8/29/2019 7:52 PM

Did you check out the S&M DTF frame?

5" tall HT, street/ dirt/ park geo, built in chain tensioners and 21.5" TT option if you need the extra room...

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8/30/2019 4:38 AM

.pegless. wrote:

Just tighten your nuts/bolts properly

Lmfao

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8/30/2019 5:32 AM

chain tensioners are overrated in my opinion. They are a neat touch if the frame you like has them but i wouldn't require them as a need on my new frame. Mine always get mauled to hell anyway.

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8/30/2019 5:46 AM

jmz313 wrote:

chain tensioners are overrated in my opinion. They are a neat touch if the frame you like has them but i wouldn't require them as a need on my new frame. Mine always get mauled to hell anyway.

Sounds like user error, if you use chain tensioners correctly they wouldn’t get mauled, well unless you have a Sunday their tensioners are garbage

I personally think chain tensioners are a must especially with plastic hub guards and peg sleeves because no matter how much you try to ruin your hub, bolts ect by over tightening that shits gonna move especially if you put in miles every time you ride

I don’t use my tensioners to push the wheel back i can do that just fine with my hands, i use them after the wheel is tightened down to ensure it cannot slip forward, I believe this is the proper way of using them especially if you have a female hub

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Testimony and apologies





I want everyone to know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of your sins, he went to hell for three days and defeated death and rose from the grave on the 3rd day.






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8/30/2019 6:27 AM

OneGuyIlluminatiEye wrote:

Sounds like user error, if you use chain tensioners correctly they wouldn’t get mauled, well unless you have a Sunday their tensioners are garbage

I personally think chain tensioners are a must especially with plastic hub guards and peg sleeves because no matter how much you try to ruin your hub, bolts ect by over tightening that shits gonna move especially if you put in miles every time you ride

I don’t use my tensioners to push the wheel back i can do that just fine with my hands, i use them after the wheel is tightened down to ensure it cannot slip forward, I believe this is the proper way of using them especially if you have a female hub

Interesting. I thought you exclusively ran your rear wheel slammed. But you use tensioners to keep it from moving. But it moves all the time.

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8/30/2019 6:31 AM

OneGuyIlluminatiEye wrote:

Sounds like user error, if you use chain tensioners correctly they wouldn’t get mauled, well unless you have a Sunday their tensioners are garbage

I personally think chain tensioners are a must especially with plastic hub guards and peg sleeves because no matter how much you try to ruin your hub, bolts ect by over tightening that shits gonna move especially if you put in miles every time you ride

I don’t use my tensioners to push the wheel back i can do that just fine with my hands, i use them after the wheel is tightened down to ensure it cannot slip forward, I believe this is the proper way of using them especially if you have a female hub

I've never had issues with the Sunday tensioners; sounds like user error.

If "that shits gonna move", I'd say it's user error.

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8/30/2019 8:39 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/30/2019 8:40 AM

Save the money you could spend on chain tensioner and buy some weights , sounds like your arms could use some more muscle so you can crank down those bolts properly so your wheel doesn’t move

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8/30/2019 8:43 AM

jmz313 wrote:

chain tensioners are overrated in my opinion. They are a neat touch if the frame you like has them but i wouldn't require them as a need on my new frame. Mine always get mauled to hell anyway.

OneGuyIlluminatiEye wrote:

Sounds like user error, if you use chain tensioners correctly they wouldn’t get mauled, well unless you have a Sunday their tensioners are garbage

I personally think chain tensioners are a must especially with plastic hub guards and peg sleeves because no matter how much you try to ruin your hub, bolts ect by over tightening that shits gonna move especially if you put in miles every time you ride

I don’t use my tensioners to push the wheel back i can do that just fine with my hands, i use them after the wheel is tightened down to ensure it cannot slip forward, I believe this is the proper way of using them especially if you have a female hub

ding ding ding sunday soundwave. Kink tensioners held up better but still got all mushroomed out.

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8/30/2019 9:07 AM

jmz313 wrote:

ding ding ding sunday soundwave. Kink tensioners held up better but still got all mushroomed out.

That means you're overtightening them. wink

They're made of a relatively soft material to avoid messing up the axle threads. If you overtighten them, they're going to get mushroomed.

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My Sunday Soundwave V3 Build
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"You can't educate pork"
- grumpySteve

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!""
- Hunter S. Thompson

8/30/2019 10:27 AM

BillyBigRigger wrote:

Well there's a local kid around here who rides dirt and he's super super good, very freaking stylish just a type of guy I wish I could look like flowing around on dirt jumps. He rides a Dagger. However I've seen him at the skatepark a few times on it and he doesn't seem to ride at all just use it as a seat at the park. So, guess it'll work fine on dirt as this guy I speak of flats kills it.

That being said, a good rider can do anything on proabaly all sorts of different geo's. I've got an ATF and I really loved that frame. The ATF is kinda polar opposite of the Dagger though geo wise.

I know what you mean, I see that a lot with spines. Some people can just naturally hit a spine so fluid

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8/30/2019 10:28 AM

Bryan91 wrote:

Did you check out the S&M DTF frame?

5" tall HT, street/ dirt/ park geo, built in chain tensioners and 21.5" TT option if you need the extra room...

I did check that frame out but the thing about that frame is that the smallest size is 20.75 tt. I was wanting a 20.5 tt

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8/30/2019 10:30 AM

jmz313 wrote:

chain tensioners are overrated in my opinion. They are a neat touch if the frame you like has them but i wouldn't require them as a need on my new frame. Mine always get mauled to hell anyway.

Good input. I’ve heard mostly good things about them but at the same time I could see how 1 good slamming of the rear rear could mess them up. Worst case backing the bolt out and stripping the threads

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8/30/2019 10:31 AM

.pegless. wrote:

Just tighten your nuts/bolts properly

I understand but for a frame in the price range of the S&M’s I feel like it should have integrated tensioners

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8/30/2019 10:33 AM

Chain tensioner are a great thing, but I think in your case it shouldn’t be the #1 priority among these frames. Your right in saying the Dagger is a bit on the aggressive side for geo, I have a similar frame to it and it’s indeed a different feeling to most. It also has a very low standover, which can make running a tall seatpost to compensate look unnecessarily high, if you run high seats.

That being said, I’d say that if you want a more “normal” frame, pick between the Diver and ATF.

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8/30/2019 11:21 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/30/2019 7:53 PM

.pegless. wrote:

Just tighten your nuts/bolts properly

Brandon9412 wrote:

I understand but for a frame in the price range of the S&M’s I feel like it should have integrated tensioners

How many people that ride an S&m frame care whether it has chain tensioners or not? Probably non of them.

As oneeyetrousersnake or whatever his name is said, it’s only an issue if you use plastic pegs and plastic hub guards. But there’s still simple ways around it.

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8/30/2019 2:48 PM

.pegless. wrote:

Just tighten your nuts/bolts properly

Brandon9412 wrote:

I understand but for a frame in the price range of the S&M’s I feel like it should have integrated tensioners

.pegless. wrote:

How many people that ride an S&m frame care whether it has chain tensioners or not? Probably non of them.

As oneeyetrousersnake or whatever his name is said, it’s only an issue if you use plastic pegs and plastic hub guards. But there’s still simple ways around it.

True there are ways around it like finding a small ball bearing, pin for a chain or the thingy in between the plates, theres lots of stuff to place behind the axle that will work but not as good as a chain tensioner lol

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Testimony and apologies





I want everyone to know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of your sins, he went to hell for three days and defeated death and rose from the grave on the 3rd day.






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old edit

8/31/2019 6:31 AM

.pegless. wrote:

Just tighten your nuts/bolts properly

Brandon9412 wrote:

I understand but for a frame in the price range of the S&M’s I feel like it should have integrated tensioners

I've run a bunch of different s/m frames. Begins sig, bonesaw, atf, whammo. None had tensioners. I never felt like I need tensiorners.

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1/31/2020 11:32 PM

Brandon9412 wrote:

I really like the geo of the Holy Diver but unfortunately it doesn’t have integrated chain tensioners. Same with ATF. The Dagger does however have integrated tensioners but I’m not sure how I feel about the geo. It’s pretty extreme park geo. I’ve even seen some people online using it for flatland. I do a little bit of everything so I’m not sure how that frame would be on street or in dirt. Anyone ridden any of those frames?

I have the S&M Dagger, been riding it for a few months. I honestly do not like the super low stand over. Now I'm considering either the S&M ATF or the S&M Whammo (Both in true 20.0" top tubes). Not sure which one to go with.

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2/1/2020 4:54 AM

your gonna buy a bike based on chain tensioners? honestly I don't like them, get the geo you want, and slam that shit!!!

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2/1/2020 11:01 AM

I'm not sure how S&M defines park street and trails, but the Diver and Dagger are practically the same geometry. Diver has the taller HT, so it would be like riding taller bars. Dagger front hub is only 1/8" further from BB due to HT angle, and it has longer dropouts for a more flexible wheelbase. The ATF has basically the same front triangle as the Dagger (taller standover offsets the HT angle to put front hub at the same spot); biggest difference is the longer backend.

Deciding factors are the taller head tube on the Diver and the longer backend on the ATF, chain tensioners are just gravy.

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2/1/2020 9:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/1/2020 11:19 PM

Chain tensioners are useless if you use female axle bolts as they will drag agaisnt the tensioner when you tighten them. They only work with male axles. Is it really affecting your wheel install not to have them?
I have a Dagger. And I would 100% recommend it. Its nimble but the holy Diver is gonna feel a lot more extreme than the dagger. Shorter rear, steeper ht, higher bb.. all make a bike more snappy and responsive. Low SO just make the bike lighter and give you more room for foot jam and whip stuff.
The ATF is literally the opposite of the Diver geo wise and the Dagger is right in the middle. If you already like the Diver Geo, then I'd go with that and not worry so much about the chain tensioners. Theres quite a few other very easy ways to get your wheel centered easily w/o them.

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2/2/2020 9:25 AM

I love my holy diver and have never had to worry about chain tensioners

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2/2/2020 10:37 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/8/2020 12:17 AM

Sean_Goff wrote:

Chain tensioners are useless if you use female axle bolts as they will drag agaisnt the tensioner when you tighten them. They only work with male axles. Is it really affecting your wheel install not to have them?
I have a Dagger. And I would 100% recommend it. Its nimble but the holy Diver is gonna feel a lot more extreme than the dagger. Shorter rear, steeper ht, higher bb.. all make a bike more snappy and responsive. Low SO just make the bike lighter and give you more room for foot jam and whip stuff.
The ATF is literally the opposite of the Diver geo wise and the Dagger is right in the middle. If you already like the Diver Geo, then I'd go with that and not worry so much about the chain tensioners. Theres quite a few other very easy ways to get your wheel centered easily w/o them.

Despite their name, that's not how I would recommend to use chain tensioners.

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2/2/2020 10:58 AM

Sean_Goff wrote:

Chain tensioners are useless if you use female axle bolts as they will drag agaisnt the tensioner when you tighten them. They only work with male axles. Is it really affecting your wheel install not to have them?
I have a Dagger. And I would 100% recommend it. Its nimble but the holy Diver is gonna feel a lot more extreme than the dagger. Shorter rear, steeper ht, higher bb.. all make a bike more snappy and responsive. Low SO just make the bike lighter and give you more room for foot jam and whip stuff.
The ATF is literally the opposite of the Diver geo wise and the Dagger is right in the middle. If you already like the Diver Geo, then I'd go with that and not worry so much about the chain tensioners. Theres quite a few other very easy ways to get your wheel centered easily w/o them.

Undesemin wrote:

Despite their name, that's not how I would recommend to use chain tensioners.

Confused.. please elaborate?

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2/2/2020 11:10 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/16/2020 4:19 PM

Sean_Goff wrote:

Confused.. please elaborate?

They're meant to stop your wheel from shifting after it's already been tightened. So you would install your wheel normally without using chain tensioners, then after your wheel was already tightened, you would lightly tighten your tensioners against your axles so that your wheel won't shift, especially if you slam on your peg really hard. They're made out of a relatively malleable metal, so if you use them to straighten your wheel or to tighten your chain, it can damage them, especially if you have a female axle.

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2/2/2020 11:25 AM

Undesemin wrote:

They're meant to stop your wheel from shifting after it's already been tightened. So you would install your wheel normally without using chain tensioners, then after your wheel was already tightened, you would lightly tighten your tensioners against your axles so that your wheel won't shift, especially if you slam on your peg really hard. They're made out of a relatively malleable metal, so if you use them to straighten your wheel or to tighten your chain, it can damage them, especially if you have a female axle.

Ummmm. Maybe they shouldn't call them tensioners then. Also, the nuts or bolts on your axle are what stop your wheel from moving not the tensioners. If they're so soft as you say. then they'll just bend when they get hit and your wheel will still.move.
Here's my theory and experience.. they're called chain tensioners because... wait for it.. they're made to put tension on the chain by holding the axle back so it does not move into a slack position. If you bolt down the axle before.you.engage the tensioners then they are.incapable of creating tension and kind of.useless.because bolts are.designed to hold your stuff in place and if your bolts don't do that then maybe you aren't tightening them.down enough.

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2/2/2020 11:40 AM

you don’t need chain tensioners when you have muscle to crank those bolts down , kids these days trying to look like Tom Dugan when they should be trying to look like Dave Osato

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