Screw it, lets debate geometry

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9/27/2017 7:37 PM

Wicked tall bars and a short back end makes a bike feel like a scooter.

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9/27/2017 7:42 PM

Yeah it does but I mean I it sorta personal preference but like you know... me personally I like tall bars and a top load because I'm a pretty tall guy but I also like a longer back end... I think mine is at 14" now.... when ever Ibe ridden a shorter chainstay than 14" I always loop out in manuals... buy that's also because that's what I'm used to but still....

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9/27/2017 8:37 PM

True. I used to run a frontload with 9.5's but I swapped it out for a frontload so it dropped it significantly. 13.3 chainstay (roughly) but i wouldn't mind going longer.

I love my eastern Dragon build. 8.25 bars, 14" chainstay. Feels good man.

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9/27/2017 9:50 PM

I run 9.5 bars and a 12" back end with my seat slammed with an offset seat post...

I ride a scooter.

Lol

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9/27/2017 10:33 PM

Heck yeah! 8.5 and a frontload, my back wheel is at 13.5

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9/27/2017 10:46 PM

Bulletpup wrote:

I run 9.5 bars and a 12" back end with my seat slammed with an offset seat post...

I ride a scooter.

Lol

The shortest chainstay length on a frame currently is 12.5 . Are you running an 18" ?

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9/27/2017 11:42 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/27/2017 11:43 PM

Tallish bars with a longish back end feels great to me. So much more pop then a short back end. I like my top load and 9" bars with 13.5-13.75.

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9/27/2017 11:52 PM

I have a theory about bar height and chainstay length. It depends on the height of the person. I think about it like this: imagine you're in manual position, or beginning a hop. And imagine where your weight goes as you start that motion. Short, light people can't pull up, and move their weight over the back wheel as easily as taller people. So, taller bars would aid that. Whereas, if a tall person has tall bars, and a short chainstay, their weight will be over the back wheel a lot easier.
I've played with geometry, especially bar height, a lot. And I started thinking about this. Then I rode with a guy from work. He's 6'4" rides a 21" tt with 13.6 chainstays. He can't hop because as soon as he leans back he's looping out. I'm trying to get a longer frame for him, and convince him it will help. But he's a park rat fashion victim who thinks smaller is better. But imagine him with 10" bars, he'd loop out dropping off a curb!

Anyway. This is just speculation. It's all personal preference. But people need to think about what would actually work better for them than just follow fashions.

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9/28/2017 1:14 AM

Bulletpup wrote:

I run 9.5 bars and a 12" back end with my seat slammed with an offset seat post...

I ride a scooter.

Lol

Brayden_Buckingham wrote:

The shortest chainstay length on a frame currently is 12.5 . Are you running an 18" ?

Lol, i was more or less posting to make my dumb scooter joke but its 12.7 slammed. I probably actually have it around 13ish at the moment.

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9/28/2017 2:08 AM

I used to have a short end, like 13", now I'm on a DLX and its nearing 14" with how far back I run it. with 9" bars, FL and maybe one spacer? I like anyway. My mate has huge bars with a TL and feels like you stood up straight. Another mate has an ALVX frame - tried to flat 3 it and faceplanted. Thing is un-ridable for me aha

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9/28/2017 7:49 AM

My main gripe with taller bars is that they just end up getting pulled right to my gut or to my face. Theres just NO room for tricks. Even 8.15 was too close to my body sometimes so I slammed my stem. Its now perfect. Looping out was also the worst which is why I got rid of my Sunday. I just could not hop with the tiny back end. I feel like more and more people are starting to realize this based on what people are saying here.

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9/28/2017 9:24 AM

8.5 or 9" bars; top load stem; 74 HTA; 13.5 chainstay (13 slammed); 11.6 BB Height; 8.7 SO Height seat midway up...these are my dream specs...like for my dream Laird build... Something traily and parky. The only thing I am really "out" on is the TT length. I am 5'10" and feel like a 20.8 would be fine...but maybe a 21?

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9/28/2017 11:15 AM

Super-Pawl wrote:

Wicked tall bars and a short back end makes a bike feel like a scooter.

How do you know what a scooter feels like ? You shouldn't be riding those gay little things

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9/28/2017 12:08 PM

Super-Pawl wrote:

Wicked tall bars and a short back end makes a bike feel like a scooter.

eskimojay wrote:

How do you know what a scooter feels like ? You shouldn't be riding those gay little things

Youve caught me!

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9/28/2017 12:50 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I have a theory about bar height and chainstay length. It depends on the height of the person. I think about it like this: imagine you're in manual position, or beginning a hop. And imagine where your weight goes as you start that motion. Short, light people can't pull up, and move their weight over the back wheel as easily as taller people. So, taller bars would aid that. Whereas, if a tall person has tall bars, and a short chainstay, their weight will be over the back wheel a lot easier.
I've played with geometry, especially bar height, a lot. And I started thinking about this. Then I rode with a guy from work. He's 6'4" rides a 21" tt with 13.6 chainstays. He can't hop because as soon as he leans back he's looping out. I'm trying to get a longer frame for him, and convince him it will help. But he's a park rat fashion victim who thinks smaller is better. But imagine him with 10" bars, he'd loop out dropping off a curb!

Anyway. This is just speculation. It's all personal preference. But people need to think about what would actually work better for them than just follow fashions.

There is a lot of validity to that. A guy I know who is 6'8" ran 10 inch bars on a bike with a 13.6ish rear. Looped out 95% of the time.

He doesn't ride anymore, but on longer rear ends he didn't loop out as fast. Have him stand on a long board with his feet together and shift his weight, then a regular skateboard and do the same and watch him land on his back doing the same. Shorter wheelbase = easier to loop out.

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9/28/2017 12:59 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I have a theory about bar height and chainstay length. It depends on the height of the person. I think about it like this: imagine you're in manual position, or beginning a hop. And imagine where your weight goes as you start that motion. Short, light people can't pull up, and move their weight over the back wheel as easily as taller people. So, taller bars would aid that. Whereas, if a tall person has tall bars, and a short chainstay, their weight will be over the back wheel a lot easier.
I've played with geometry, especially bar height, a lot. And I started thinking about this. Then I rode with a guy from work. He's 6'4" rides a 21" tt with 13.6 chainstays. He can't hop because as soon as he leans back he's looping out. I'm trying to get a longer frame for him, and convince him it will help. But he's a park rat fashion victim who thinks smaller is better. But imagine him with 10" bars, he'd loop out dropping off a curb!

Anyway. This is just speculation. It's all personal preference. But people need to think about what would actually work better for them than just follow fashions.

dave lawrence wrote:

There is a lot of validity to that. A guy I know who is 6'8" ran 10 inch bars on a bike with a 13.6ish rear. Looped out 95% of the time.

He doesn't ride anymore, but on longer rear ends he didn't loop out as fast. Have him stand on a long board with his feet together and shift his weight, then a regular skateboard and do the same and watch him land on his back doing the same. Shorter wheelbase = easier to loop out.

I just imagine what happens if things are exaggerated. A few mm, or even a few inches doesn't seem like much, but with some things it can have a drastic affect. It still seems like most people don't even think about bb height though

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9/28/2017 1:57 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I just imagine what happens if things are exaggerated. A few mm, or even a few inches doesn't seem like much, but with some things it can have a drastic affect. It still seems like most people don't even think about bb height though

I specifically chose a Motörbone instead of a Gypsy based on its BB height. I still wanted a little more responsiveness even with a longer back end so I opted for the higher one on the BD. I dont regret my decision, even if my back may be a little less happy.

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9/29/2017 11:31 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/29/2017 11:33 AM

If i had money for a frame i would run a steeper head tube angle than my kink frame, which is 75. Also a shorter rear end i feel 13.25-13.5 slammed would be mint. But what about seat tube angles? Traditional is what like 70 degrees? I see some frames have a more laid back seat tube angle like some Fly frames have 69, what about steeper seat angles? Like 71? Seems rare and also it seems bmx frame geo has evolved the seat tube angle based off of how the actual seat looks on the bike. Like if you have a one-piece seat the angle is already somewhat laid back to give it the common look of most modern setups. Would a steeper seat angle make the top tube feel smaller and a more laid back seat tube make the frame feel longer? Just wondering opinions

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9/29/2017 11:43 AM

Super-Pawl wrote:

Wicked tall bars and a short back end makes a bike feel like a scooter.

Photo

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9/29/2017 12:54 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I have a theory about bar height and chainstay length. It depends on the height of the person. I think about it like this: imagine you're in manual position, or beginning a hop. And imagine where your weight goes as you start that motion. Short, light people can't pull up, and move their weight over the back wheel as easily as taller people. So, taller bars would aid that. Whereas, if a tall person has tall bars, and a short chainstay, their weight will be over the back wheel a lot easier.
I've played with geometry, especially bar height, a lot. And I started thinking about this. Then I rode with a guy from work. He's 6'4" rides a 21" tt with 13.6 chainstays. He can't hop because as soon as he leans back he's looping out. I'm trying to get a longer frame for him, and convince him it will help. But he's a park rat fashion victim who thinks smaller is better. But imagine him with 10" bars, he'd loop out dropping off a curb!

Anyway. This is just speculation. It's all personal preference. But people need to think about what would actually work better for them than just follow fashions.

I can see where you going in your train of thought. Makes sense. I REALLY wish it were possible to have "track day" of sorts with a manufacturer or a bike shop that has a bunch of different manufacturer bikes on hand to try. THAT would be awesome! I have to say that (based on your theory) I feel what you are explaining. It isn't that I can't adapt (which is what you have to do), I just notice that anything from bunny hops to manuals feels really easy to loop out on the Eastern. I'm a bit over 6'. The Eastern has 13-1/4" back with 8.85 tall bars & a top load stem on a 20.85" tt. I find that I can easily loop out. I'd like to try a longer rear end & top tube but finding something like that is near impossible. Like, I'd like to try a 21, a 21.5 & a 22" tt. Then try all three with varying length rear ends.

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9/29/2017 1:46 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I have a theory about bar height and chainstay length. It depends on the height of the person. I think about it like this: imagine you're in manual position, or beginning a hop. And imagine where your weight goes as you start that motion. Short, light people can't pull up, and move their weight over the back wheel as easily as taller people. So, taller bars would aid that. Whereas, if a tall person has tall bars, and a short chainstay, their weight will be over the back wheel a lot easier.
I've played with geometry, especially bar height, a lot. And I started thinking about this. Then I rode with a guy from work. He's 6'4" rides a 21" tt with 13.6 chainstays. He can't hop because as soon as he leans back he's looping out. I'm trying to get a longer frame for him, and convince him it will help. But he's a park rat fashion victim who thinks smaller is better. But imagine him with 10" bars, he'd loop out dropping off a curb!

Anyway. This is just speculation. It's all personal preference. But people need to think about what would actually work better for them than just follow fashions.

Mishinn_Control wrote:

I can see where you going in your train of thought. Makes sense. I REALLY wish it were possible to have "track day" of sorts with a manufacturer or a bike shop that has a bunch of different manufacturer bikes on hand to try. THAT would be awesome! I have to say that (based on your theory) I feel what you are explaining. It isn't that I can't adapt (which is what you have to do), I just notice that anything from bunny hops to manuals feels really easy to loop out on the Eastern. I'm a bit over 6'. The Eastern has 13-1/4" back with 8.85 tall bars & a top load stem on a 20.85" tt. I find that I can easily loop out. I'd like to try a longer rear end & top tube but finding something like that is near impossible. Like, I'd like to try a 21, a 21.5 & a 22" tt. Then try all three with varying length rear ends.

Sounds to me like just a longer toptube would help, even going by the general rule of up to 6' tall you should have a 21", anything over you step it up to 21.25 (obviously not including shorter people with shorter toptubes). But over 13.5 chainstays would help too. Have you got enough room to add another half link to your chain?

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9/29/2017 1:51 PM

Shredkink9 wrote:

If i had money for a frame i would run a steeper head tube angle than my kink frame, which is 75. Also a shorter rear end i feel 13.25-13.5 slammed would be mint. But what about seat tube angles? Traditional is what like 70 degrees? I see some frames have a more laid back seat tube angle like some Fly frames have 69, what about steeper seat angles? Like 71? Seems rare and also it seems bmx frame geo has evolved the seat tube angle based off of how the actual seat looks on the bike. Like if you have a one-piece seat the angle is already somewhat laid back to give it the common look of most modern setups. Would a steeper seat angle make the top tube feel smaller and a more laid back seat tube make the frame feel longer? Just wondering opinions

Traditional seat tube angle is 71. Anything mellower shortens the wheel base, by bringing your back wheel forward. It puts you in a more over the back wheel position. But, as the bb is moved forward, it also shortens the room up front. It makes a bike feel smaller basically. Personally, I hate it, I briefly had a Bsd trail or park (literally rode it home after a trade, then stripped it) and felt like I was going to loop out just riding along. It's probably fine for half a crank foot tall ledge nibbles

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9/29/2017 3:17 PM

I agree, scooters indeed.

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FI

9/29/2017 3:18 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

I have a theory about bar height and chainstay length. It depends on the height of the person. I think about it like this: imagine you're in manual position, or beginning a hop. And imagine where your weight goes as you start that motion. Short, light people can't pull up, and move their weight over the back wheel as easily as taller people. So, taller bars would aid that. Whereas, if a tall person has tall bars, and a short chainstay, their weight will be over the back wheel a lot easier.
I've played with geometry, especially bar height, a lot. And I started thinking about this. Then I rode with a guy from work. He's 6'4" rides a 21" tt with 13.6 chainstays. He can't hop because as soon as he leans back he's looping out. I'm trying to get a longer frame for him, and convince him it will help. But he's a park rat fashion victim who thinks smaller is better. But imagine him with 10" bars, he'd loop out dropping off a curb!

Anyway. This is just speculation. It's all personal preference. But people need to think about what would actually work better for them than just follow fashions.

Mishinn_Control wrote:

I can see where you going in your train of thought. Makes sense. I REALLY wish it were possible to have "track day" of sorts with a manufacturer or a bike shop that has a bunch of different manufacturer bikes on hand to try. THAT would be awesome! I have to say that (based on your theory) I feel what you are explaining. It isn't that I can't adapt (which is what you have to do), I just notice that anything from bunny hops to manuals feels really easy to loop out on the Eastern. I'm a bit over 6'. The Eastern has 13-1/4" back with 8.85 tall bars & a top load stem on a 20.85" tt. I find that I can easily loop out. I'd like to try a longer rear end & top tube but finding something like that is near impossible. Like, I'd like to try a 21, a 21.5 & a 22" tt. Then try all three with varying length rear ends.

grumpySteve wrote:

Sounds to me like just a longer toptube would help, even going by the general rule of up to 6' tall you should have a 21", anything over you step it up to 21.25 (obviously not including shorter people with shorter toptubes). But over 13.5 chainstays would help too. Have you got enough room to add another half link to your chain?

Yeah, I think I could squeeze that in (the half link). I was thinking of that before anyway. I wanted a 21+ frame originally but settled until I really knew what I wanted geo, wise since I've been out of the game for so long

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9/30/2017 1:57 AM

Shredkink9 wrote:

If i had money for a frame i would run a steeper head tube angle than my kink frame, which is 75. Also a shorter rear end i feel 13.25-13.5 slammed would be mint. But what about seat tube angles? Traditional is what like 70 degrees? I see some frames have a more laid back seat tube angle like some Fly frames have 69, what about steeper seat angles? Like 71? Seems rare and also it seems bmx frame geo has evolved the seat tube angle based off of how the actual seat looks on the bike. Like if you have a one-piece seat the angle is already somewhat laid back to give it the common look of most modern setups. Would a steeper seat angle make the top tube feel smaller and a more laid back seat tube make the frame feel longer? Just wondering opinions

grumpySteve wrote:

Traditional seat tube angle is 71. Anything mellower shortens the wheel base, by bringing your back wheel forward. It puts you in a more over the back wheel position. But, as the bb is moved forward, it also shortens the room up front. It makes a bike feel smaller basically. Personally, I hate it, I briefly had a Bsd trail or park (literally rode it home after a trade, then stripped it) and felt like I was going to loop out just riding along. It's probably fine for half a crank foot tall ledge nibbles

I know my stranger nomad has a 21" top tube, with a 70° seat tube. A 9" standover brings my top tube down to about 20.85, which feels nice to me. I'm only 5'9", and find 21" just a little too long. So yeah the seat angle will change the top tube length. I don't think it affects where your rear wheel is though. 13.5 slammed is still 13.5 no matter what angle the seat tube. Maybe if you were sitting down to do a bunny hop it would matter, but we don't do that. If anything it would make your back end longer because your feet are moving closer towards your head tube, not away, but the measurements don't change anyway.

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9/30/2017 2:10 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/30/2017 2:10 AM

Eh, every rider needs a specific geometry. Can't judge too harshly, IMO.

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9/30/2017 10:08 AM

readybmxer wrote:

Eh, every rider needs a specific geometry. Can't judge too harshly, IMO.

Not really judging, more pointing out my gripes

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9/30/2017 7:07 PM

Here's my gripe: Seems like every contemporary bmx bike has a 75° head tube angle and a 71° seat tube angle. What about a 74.5° head tube? It's a classic size. I do see some trail bikes with 74.5, but I don't want a trail bike. I want something for all-around riding.

If a company does something that's not 75°, then they go steeper, like 75.25 or 75.5. I want something that feels stable to me but that I can also hop with. Drives me nuts that every company just basically builds to the exact same specs as everyone else.

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9/30/2017 7:55 PM

suttercane wrote:

Here's my gripe: Seems like every contemporary bmx bike has a 75° head tube angle and a 71° seat tube angle. What about a 74.5° head tube? It's a classic size. I do see some trail bikes with 74.5, but I don't want a trail bike. I want something for all-around riding.

If a company does something that's not 75°, then they go steeper, like 75.25 or 75.5. I want something that feels stable to me but that I can also hop with. Drives me nuts that every company just basically builds to the exact same specs as everyone else.

Get a lairdframe then

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10/1/2017 5:17 AM

eskimojay wrote:

Get a lairdframe then

My point is, I think there's a market for a complete or a frame that's 74.5, 71, less than 21 tt, and not made for trails. Seems silly to have to spring for a custom frame for classic geometry.

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