Thoughts on the new federal ICS chain stays

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2/8/2019 2:06 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/8/2019 2:07 PM

So I'm thinking about getting one of the new federal perrin ICS frames and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with the Invest Cast Chain stays.

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I believe in hub guard protection

2/9/2019 12:02 AM

2.6 tire ez

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2/9/2019 12:04 AM

threesomemist wrote:

So I'm thinking about getting one of the new federal perrin ICS frames and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with the Invest Cast Chain stays.

To be clear it has an investment cast chainstay wishbone; The connecting peices are still chromoly tubing.

Seems like a cool idea, IC dropouts seem to be catching on. Soon entire frames will be IC. Lol

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2/9/2019 12:07 AM

threesomemist wrote:

So I'm thinking about getting one of the new federal perrin ICS frames and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with the Invest Cast Chain stays.

Bulletpup wrote:

To be clear it has an investment cast chainstay wishbone; The connecting peices are still chromoly tubing.

Seems like a cool idea, IC dropouts seem to be catching on. Soon entire frames will be IC. Lol

So heavy

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Hmmm

2/9/2019 12:17 AM

Bulletpup wrote:

To be clear it has an investment cast chainstay wishbone; The connecting peices are still chromoly tubing.

Seems like a cool idea, IC dropouts seem to be catching on. Soon entire frames will be IC. Lol

"IC dropouts seem to be catching on."
They've come, gone and come back again like twice now.

"Soon entire frames will be IC"
WTP C.R.E.A.M. frame, from around 2010

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My Sunday Soundwave Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork" - grumpySteve

2/9/2019 7:34 AM

Yea I'm looking at the perrin frame the street sweeper and the noster s

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I believe in hub guard protection

2/9/2019 7:58 AM

p1p1092 wrote:

"IC dropouts seem to be catching on."
They've come, gone and come back again like twice now.

"Soon entire frames will be IC"
WTP C.R.E.A.M. frame, from around 2010

Still using my CREAM frame from 2012, invest cast everything, the thing is bomb proof, can’t fault it at all

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Ride everything

2/9/2019 8:53 AM

threesomemist wrote:

So I'm thinking about getting one of the new federal perrin ICS frames and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with the Invest Cast Chain stays.

Bulletpup wrote:

To be clear it has an investment cast chainstay wishbone; The connecting peices are still chromoly tubing.

Seems like a cool idea, IC dropouts seem to be catching on. Soon entire frames will be IC. Lol

No it does not have an investment cast wishbone (like my United Incarnate does.) They are utilizing the same investment cast chainstay junction that the Federal Churchill frame uses.

& as mentioned above, investment cast drop outs have been a common thing for a handful of years now. & WTP has already done fully IC frames & they were prone to failure.

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Refs : SnM An1mal, GThompson121, Chuck8273, blizzbikes, bmxsteve99, kevin.brock.338, zinum, Brian_Griffin, billyhandyjunior, riverM, tomdon
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2/9/2019 9:00 AM

threesomemist wrote:

So I'm thinking about getting one of the new federal perrin ICS frames and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with the Invest Cast Chain stays.

Bulletpup wrote:

To be clear it has an investment cast chainstay wishbone; The connecting peices are still chromoly tubing.

Seems like a cool idea, IC dropouts seem to be catching on. Soon entire frames will be IC. Lol

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

No it does not have an investment cast wishbone (like my United Incarnate does.) They are utilizing the same investment cast chainstay junction that the Federal Churchill frame uses.

& as mentioned above, investment cast drop outs have been a common thing for a handful of years now. & WTP has already done fully IC frames & they were prone to failure.

It says invest cast wishbone on the product description.

"The brand new Perrin signature frame has been completely redesigned with a shorter rear end which is 12.9” slammed. This frame is also the first to feature the new investment cast (ICS) chain stay wishbone to allow better clearance for wide tyres. The frame has also been updated to include IC dropouts, seat clamp and seat stay bridge. This frame also features all new graphics by Rich Forne."

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2/9/2019 9:03 AM

Bulletpup wrote:

To be clear it has an investment cast chainstay wishbone; The connecting peices are still chromoly tubing.

Seems like a cool idea, IC dropouts seem to be catching on. Soon entire frames will be IC. Lol

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

No it does not have an investment cast wishbone (like my United Incarnate does.) They are utilizing the same investment cast chainstay junction that the Federal Churchill frame uses.

& as mentioned above, investment cast drop outs have been a common thing for a handful of years now. & WTP has already done fully IC frames & they were prone to failure.

CHILDISHGAMBINO wrote:

It says invest cast wishbone on the product description.

"The brand new Perrin signature frame has been completely redesigned with a shorter rear end which is 12.9” slammed. This frame is also the first to feature the new investment cast (ICS) chain stay wishbone to allow better clearance for wide tyres. The frame has also been updated to include IC dropouts, seat clamp and seat stay bridge. This frame also features all new graphics by Rich Forne."

It can say all it wants, this is not a wishbone.

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Refs : SnM An1mal, GThompson121, Chuck8273, blizzbikes, bmxsteve99, kevin.brock.338, zinum, Brian_Griffin, billyhandyjunior, riverM, tomdon
Instagram : @timhankinsbmx


2/9/2019 9:06 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/9/2019 9:08 AM

These are wishbones.




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Refs : SnM An1mal, GThompson121, Chuck8273, blizzbikes, bmxsteve99, kevin.brock.338, zinum, Brian_Griffin, billyhandyjunior, riverM, tomdon
Instagram : @timhankinsbmx


2/9/2019 9:09 AM

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

It can say all it wants, this is not a wishbone.

Agreed. It's a fancy way of doing a normal bridge-style BB-CS connection.

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My Sunday Soundwave Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork" - grumpySteve

2/9/2019 9:26 AM

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

No it does not have an investment cast wishbone (like my United Incarnate does.) They are utilizing the same investment cast chainstay junction that the Federal Churchill frame uses.

& as mentioned above, investment cast drop outs have been a common thing for a handful of years now. & WTP has already done fully IC frames & they were prone to failure.

CHILDISHGAMBINO wrote:

It says invest cast wishbone on the product description.

"The brand new Perrin signature frame has been completely redesigned with a shorter rear end which is 12.9” slammed. This frame is also the first to feature the new investment cast (ICS) chain stay wishbone to allow better clearance for wide tyres. The frame has also been updated to include IC dropouts, seat clamp and seat stay bridge. This frame also features all new graphics by Rich Forne."

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

It can say all it wants, this is not a wishbone.

If it didn't have that hole then it would be a wishbone, or at least look more like one

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Hmmm

2/9/2019 9:34 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/9/2019 9:35 AM

CHILDISHGAMBINO wrote:

It says invest cast wishbone on the product description.

"The brand new Perrin signature frame has been completely redesigned with a shorter rear end which is 12.9” slammed. This frame is also the first to feature the new investment cast (ICS) chain stay wishbone to allow better clearance for wide tyres. The frame has also been updated to include IC dropouts, seat clamp and seat stay bridge. This frame also features all new graphics by Rich Forne."

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

It can say all it wants, this is not a wishbone.

Edman123 wrote:

If it didn't have that hole then it would be a wishbone, or at least look more like one

Debatable.

I know there's not really a true definition to what a wishbone is, but to me it's always been a virtual extension of the downtube through the BB shell, which the chainstays are then welded to.

This on the other hand, even without the hole, is just an investment-cast version of a regular chainstay junction that "bleeds out" into the chainstays. It doesn't really resemble a wishbone in any way, shape, or form imo.

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Refs : SnM An1mal, GThompson121, Chuck8273, blizzbikes, bmxsteve99, kevin.brock.338, zinum, Brian_Griffin, billyhandyjunior, riverM, tomdon
Instagram : @timhankinsbmx


2/9/2019 9:43 AM

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

It can say all it wants, this is not a wishbone.

Edman123 wrote:

If it didn't have that hole then it would be a wishbone, or at least look more like one

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

Debatable.

I know there's not really a true definition to what a wishbone is, but to me it's always been a virtual extension of the downtube through the BB shell, which the chainstays are then welded to.

This on the other hand, even without the hole, is just an investment-cast version of a regular chainstay junction that "bleeds out" into the chainstays. It doesn't really resemble a wishbone in any way, shape, or form imo.

I was just thinking it would look like a wishbone out of a chicken

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Hmmm

2/9/2019 10:06 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/9/2019 10:06 AM

This is a solution in search of a problem. A traditional wishbone is cheaper, easier to manufacture, and most likely a good amount more durable. The welds on the chainstays of this frame end up right where you tend to hit your chainstay when you miss a grind.

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2/9/2019 11:15 AM

Maybe they are just referring to it as the "wishbone" so there is no question as to the location of the investment casted part.

Either way, it's a cool idea, bends in steel cause stress and weakness. I'm pretty sure heat treating can help restructure the grain of the steel but investment casting seems like a cool workaround since it's already the basic shape.

If the only reason is tire clearance, I can see this being benificial for brakeless-pegged-street riding. If your wheel were to shift mid-session, you would have more clearance before your tire starts rubbing and interfering with your coasting speed.

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2/9/2019 11:23 AM

Bulletpup wrote:

Maybe they are just referring to it as the "wishbone" so there is no question as to the location of the investment casted part.

Either way, it's a cool idea, bends in steel cause stress and weakness. I'm pretty sure heat treating can help restructure the grain of the steel but investment casting seems like a cool workaround since it's already the basic shape.

If the only reason is tire clearance, I can see this being benificial for brakeless-pegged-street riding. If your wheel were to shift mid-session, you would have more clearance before your tire starts rubbing and interfering with your coasting speed.

Good points but to me, it just seems like change for the sake of change, which is stupid...

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My Sunday Soundwave Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork" - grumpySteve

2/9/2019 11:59 AM

Bulletpup wrote:

Maybe they are just referring to it as the "wishbone" so there is no question as to the location of the investment casted part.

Either way, it's a cool idea, bends in steel cause stress and weakness. I'm pretty sure heat treating can help restructure the grain of the steel but investment casting seems like a cool workaround since it's already the basic shape.

If the only reason is tire clearance, I can see this being benificial for brakeless-pegged-street riding. If your wheel were to shift mid-session, you would have more clearance before your tire starts rubbing and interfering with your coasting speed.

p1p1092 wrote:

Good points but to me, it just seems like change for the sake of change, which is stupid...

I can see this being developed into a way for companies to make the back end even shorter

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Hmmm

2/9/2019 12:04 PM

Edman123 wrote:

I can see this being developed into a way for companies to make the back end even shorter

Ahhh, great point. Hadn't thought of that; perhaps it does serve a purpose.

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My Sunday Soundwave Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork" - grumpySteve

2/9/2019 12:05 PM

Bulletpup wrote:

Maybe they are just referring to it as the "wishbone" so there is no question as to the location of the investment casted part.

Either way, it's a cool idea, bends in steel cause stress and weakness. I'm pretty sure heat treating can help restructure the grain of the steel but investment casting seems like a cool workaround since it's already the basic shape.

If the only reason is tire clearance, I can see this being benificial for brakeless-pegged-street riding. If your wheel were to shift mid-session, you would have more clearance before your tire starts rubbing and interfering with your coasting speed.

p1p1092 wrote:

Good points but to me, it just seems like change for the sake of change, which is stupid...

Plus it's fucking hideous

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2/10/2019 9:31 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/10/2019 9:59 AM

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

No it does not have an investment cast wishbone (like my United Incarnate does.) They are utilizing the same investment cast chainstay junction that the Federal Churchill frame uses.

& as mentioned above, investment cast drop outs have been a common thing for a handful of years now. & WTP has already done fully IC frames & they were prone to failure.

CHILDISHGAMBINO wrote:

It says invest cast wishbone on the product description.

"The brand new Perrin signature frame has been completely redesigned with a shorter rear end which is 12.9” slammed. This frame is also the first to feature the new investment cast (ICS) chain stay wishbone to allow better clearance for wide tyres. The frame has also been updated to include IC dropouts, seat clamp and seat stay bridge. This frame also features all new graphics by Rich Forne."

HardBMX_Tim wrote:

It can say all it wants, this is not a wishbone.

It actually is a wishbone. Looks different cuz it doesn't use a tube in the middle but the classic design is that the CS goes directly to the BB and then has a bridge connecting the 2 sides. A wishbone connects the 2 CS to a single piece that is then connected directly to the BB also eliminating the need for a bridge.
I think what makes it a wishbone to them is that the IC connector is actually one piece that the 2 CS connect to. I could be wrong about this and no offense but its an IC wishbone if anything.
IC means that the piece is Cast using the Investcasting Mold process to create a single solid piece in the higher stress areas that the CS are then welded to.
So instead of bending and welding the CS to the BB and then welding on a bridge (essentially adding more heat and weakening the whole joint) they make a solid piece (similar to the wishbone process) that eliminates the bridge and only requires 2 simple welds and less bending and has a lot less weak spots. The only real difference is that in the classic wishbone they used a tube instead of an IC piece.

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2/10/2019 11:46 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/10/2019 11:48 AM

I'm really digging this new investment cast yolk type chain stay. It's very nice. I can see as someone else mentioned them doing a true wishbone version of it (Boner). And no this is still a double bend investment cast chainstay not a wishbone. I think anything above 2.3 tyre size is insane.

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2/10/2019 2:25 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/10/2019 2:25 PM

I am on team wishbone. It looks like a normal double bend stay, but it's structurally closer to a wishbone. The stays are connected a couple inches back from the BB to a piece of metal that then connects to the BB. But the traditional wishbone is still a better design.

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2/10/2019 2:34 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/10/2019 2:36 PM

I wish they still made 68mm BB's. But but it has 2 tubes. Wishbone only one nice one.

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2/10/2019 2:38 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/10/2019 2:39 PM

How wide do you guys think the BB's will get for "bigger better" tyre clearance ? Along with tyre size as well since they go hand in hand. I'm mostly concerned with chain alignment as it gets worse the wider the BB gets.

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2/10/2019 7:58 PM

Cellmember wrote:

How wide do you guys think the BB's will get for "bigger better" tyre clearance ? Along with tyre size as well since they go hand in hand. I'm mostly concerned with chain alignment as it gets worse the wider the BB gets.

I'm surprised no one's looking at mtb hub spacing. But a good chainline seems to be a bit of an after thought with frames. Riders need to realise super short chainstays won't automatically make them better at riding. Or that wide tyres and short chainstays don't mix.
It's demand and supply though. Brands compete to be what they think riders want, which in turn makes riders think that's what they need. But if you can't do a trick, shorter chainstays aren't going to suddenly make you pull it.

And the ics wishbone is fucking hideous.

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2/10/2019 9:25 PM

Xxohioanxx wrote:

I am on team wishbone. It looks like a normal double bend stay, but it's structurally closer to a wishbone. The stays are connected a couple inches back from the BB to a piece of metal that then connects to the BB. But the traditional wishbone is still a better design.

I'm curious, why do you say that? Because I thought the same as you for a while and then realized that one central tube is more likely to bend than 2 tubes supporting each other.

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2/10/2019 9:35 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/11/2019 12:24 PM

Super-Pawl wrote:

I'm curious, why do you say that? Because I thought the same as you for a while and then realized that one central tube is more likely to bend than 2 tubes supporting each other.

Not if that single tube has a diameter similar or equal to the sum of the diameters of the 2 tubes. The 2 tubes are by themselves, not very strong at all; what do you think the bridge is there for?

There's a lot of useless material in a traditional S-bend chainstay.

You can shorten a wishbone far more and/or widen the chainstays, to accommodate shorter chainstays and/or wider tyre clearance without risking structural integrity.

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My Sunday Soundwave Build
Insta: @p.gibbons

"You can't educate pork" - grumpySteve

2/10/2019 9:56 PM

HardBMX_Tim wrote: These are wishbones.




That red bsd wishbone is super clean...very nice!

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