Which Custom Frame Builder

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8/2/2018 6:50 PM

Just got my 2nd lairdframe today and love it. I also just got a custom fbm! Love both of them! Photo
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brakeless maniac

8/3/2018 12:53 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

It's a bit different with the frames I think. Fbm offers a few options for each part, but anything over that will cost more. Same with laird. I could get a custom credence ccr for less than a custom fbm with bullet capped stays. S&m have a large variety of frames, so customising one you like by tweaking the geometry is no less beneficial than picking from a list of options.
They all charge a lot for fancy paint.

Four wrote:

When looking at them though they dont offer any interesting features. You cant go super lower or high on the standover, steep or mellow on the ht, you cant get like a 12.1 cs length. They're all just small differences that aren't really unique such as a .5 steeper or mellow ht or .25 shorter cs. For some people that's okay but if I spent 600 dollars on a frame I'd want it to be a real custom. and I think laird does any color for 35.

As far as custom builders go I think laird has the best options, lightest frames, and cheapest price.

But the choices they offer are enough. 12" chainstays simply don't work if you want a good chain line, and steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea. If those things worked, more brands would already be offering them

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8/3/2018 1:09 AM

Just an update. I've read everything in here. I hit up John lee at FBM. Told me I can pay up front but can't do custom seatstay bridge because no way to laser cut. I still kinda wanna do FBM just because I love Crandall. If i can't get the stickers i want made I'm gonna go with Laird. Like i said about S&M. I love them but it's a custom pro frame.

The reason I'm so determined about this frame is because I wanna give Joe Tiseo the sig frame he deserved before he passed. I want Tiseo on the Seatstay bridge.

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8/3/2018 1:47 AM

WiteMic wrote:

Just an update. I've read everything in here. I hit up John lee at FBM. Told me I can pay up front but can't do custom seatstay bridge because no way to laser cut. I still kinda wanna do FBM just because I love Crandall. If i can't get the stickers i want made I'm gonna go with Laird. Like i said about S&M. I love them but it's a custom pro frame.

The reason I'm so determined about this frame is because I wanna give Joe Tiseo the sig frame he deserved before he passed. I want Tiseo on the Seatstay bridge.

If you're prepared to spend the money to do it, you could get an fbm with the flat plate bridge, then get a custom pewter badge that fits on the bridge. Or, you could make one, or something (I thought about this if I ever went ahead with getting theGrey frames made). Fbm actually did this with the orphan frame Photo

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8/4/2018 12:00 AM

Contact Dave at pedal driven cycles. He has been in the frame game forever. Good dude and will offer basically any option you could ask for. There is one person from here that had a bad experience and pouted on the internet about it, but that was also when Dave was going through some serious health issues. Just give him an email or a call and he will bring you vision to life. Ik he has done custom bridges for dinge bmx crew frames. Either himself or through someone else.

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8/4/2018 12:45 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

It's a bit different with the frames I think. Fbm offers a few options for each part, but anything over that will cost more. Same with laird. I could get a custom credence ccr for less than a custom fbm with bullet capped stays. S&m have a large variety of frames, so customising one you like by tweaking the geometry is no less beneficial than picking from a list of options.
They all charge a lot for fancy paint.

Four wrote:

When looking at them though they dont offer any interesting features. You cant go super lower or high on the standover, steep or mellow on the ht, you cant get like a 12.1 cs length. They're all just small differences that aren't really unique such as a .5 steeper or mellow ht or .25 shorter cs. For some people that's okay but if I spent 600 dollars on a frame I'd want it to be a real custom. and I think laird does any color for 35.

As far as custom builders go I think laird has the best options, lightest frames, and cheapest price.

grumpySteve wrote:

But the choices they offer are enough. 12" chainstays simply don't work if you want a good chain line, and steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea. If those things worked, more brands would already be offering them

There have been flatland frames down to 12.3 cs and we the people i think are coming out with 76.5 And the point is they aren't true custom frames. Most dont go under 13 cs. I think shortest the dagger custom goes is 12.8 lol. The specs they offer you could easily just buy a different frame already made that's just as good and save 200 extra dollars. The choices offered are very generic

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/4/2018 1:39 AM

Four wrote:

When looking at them though they dont offer any interesting features. You cant go super lower or high on the standover, steep or mellow on the ht, you cant get like a 12.1 cs length. They're all just small differences that aren't really unique such as a .5 steeper or mellow ht or .25 shorter cs. For some people that's okay but if I spent 600 dollars on a frame I'd want it to be a real custom. and I think laird does any color for 35.

As far as custom builders go I think laird has the best options, lightest frames, and cheapest price.

grumpySteve wrote:

But the choices they offer are enough. 12" chainstays simply don't work if you want a good chain line, and steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea. If those things worked, more brands would already be offering them

Four wrote:

There have been flatland frames down to 12.3 cs and we the people i think are coming out with 76.5 And the point is they aren't true custom frames. Most dont go under 13 cs. I think shortest the dagger custom goes is 12.8 lol. The specs they offer you could easily just buy a different frame already made that's just as good and save 200 extra dollars. The choices offered are very generic

What does it need to have to be custom? Fbm only offer a certain variety. Are they not custom? If I got a credence ccr with a higher bb, steeper headangle and shorter chainstays would it not be custom? They offer current frames as a base to work around. Some frames have a certain feature that others don't, so you're customising a frame to suit your needs. That's how I see it anyway

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8/4/2018 7:19 AM

Not sure if this would work but maybe hit up Laird and have him do the laser cutting for the seat bridge? Then ship it to FBM for the custom frame work. Best of two great worlds.

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8/4/2018 8:12 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/4/2018 11:50 AM

blizzbikes wrote:

Contact Dave at pedal driven cycles. He has been in the frame game forever. Good dude and will offer basically any option you could ask for. There is one person from here that had a bad experience and pouted on the internet about it, but that was also when Dave was going through some serious health issues. Just give him an email or a call and he will bring you vision to life. Ik he has done custom bridges for dinge bmx crew frames. Either himself or through someone else.

Fun interpretation, but I paid up front and on time and one of the main features of my custom build was missing when the frame arrived. I was offered a trucker hat as a resolution. This all happened before he had his health issues.

Secondly, I was in contact with Dave the through the entire process and when his wife fell ill during the time my frame was being built, I told him very specifically (and have the records to prove it) that he could take all the time he needs with his family and get things straight. I'm not the kind of moron who places a BMX frame over family health.

The LAST thing I wanted to do was have that process go as far south as it did. I have no ill will towards Dave as a person, but as a business man things are lacking. If you don't have enough capital in your business to issue a refund to someone in a timely matter, something is wrong and offering things like stickers and hats isn't the way to go about it. He's a good dude and was cool with me, but shit happens, and buyer beware.

Because of that, I wouldn't send anyone to Dave that wasn't local to him so they could figure things out in person and not have to deal with shipping back and forth if that was the case.

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BMX over 30: Eat clean, Stretch, and Pray.

8/4/2018 9:34 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

What does it need to have to be custom? Fbm only offer a certain variety. Are they not custom? If I got a credence ccr with a higher bb, steeper headangle and shorter chainstays would it not be custom? They offer current frames as a base to work around. Some frames have a certain feature that others don't, so you're customising a frame to suit your needs. That's how I see it anyway

They're just modified versions of their already existing frames. A true custom is a frame welded exactly to your specifications with no limits. S&m "customs" are just simply altered versions of their frames at an (imo) very overpriced cost. Their options are so limited you could just select a different already existing frame and save the money. A laird you can get everything you want at a reasonable price.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/4/2018 10:10 AM

Four wrote:

They're just modified versions of their already existing frames. A true custom is a frame welded exactly to your specifications with no limits. S&m "customs" are just simply altered versions of their frames at an (imo) very overpriced cost. Their options are so limited you could just select a different already existing frame and save the money. A laird you can get everything you want at a reasonable price.

true and laird is also an old school hardcore guy so his convictions are strong. not to mention hes cheaper than everyone else too.

as for steve.

"steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea"

how can you make a statement like that without ever trying it.


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Lessons not learned in blood are soon forgotten

8/4/2018 1:08 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

What does it need to have to be custom? Fbm only offer a certain variety. Are they not custom? If I got a credence ccr with a higher bb, steeper headangle and shorter chainstays would it not be custom? They offer current frames as a base to work around. Some frames have a certain feature that others don't, so you're customising a frame to suit your needs. That's how I see it anyway

Four wrote:

They're just modified versions of their already existing frames. A true custom is a frame welded exactly to your specifications with no limits. S&m "customs" are just simply altered versions of their frames at an (imo) very overpriced cost. Their options are so limited you could just select a different already existing frame and save the money. A laird you can get everything you want at a reasonable price.

RonnieRawdawg wrote:

true and laird is also an old school hardcore guy so his convictions are strong. not to mention hes cheaper than everyone else too.

as for steve.

"steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea"

how can you make a statement like that without ever trying it.


Because I tried 75.5 and didn't like it? Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals.

And the s&m frames are welded and built to your own specifications. They don't have a bunch of frames hanging up with random different geometry in the hope someone will buy one. You pick what you want, they cut, mitre and bend the tubes, then weld it together. Laird does the same, fbm does the same.
They all buy tubes in bulk, and make the frame out of them. If you want something they don't use regularly, you'll pay extra for it.

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8/4/2018 2:23 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

Because I tried 75.5 and didn't like it? Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals.

And the s&m frames are welded and built to your own specifications. They don't have a bunch of frames hanging up with random different geometry in the hope someone will buy one. You pick what you want, they cut, mitre and bend the tubes, then weld it together. Laird does the same, fbm does the same.
They all buy tubes in bulk, and make the frame out of them. If you want something they don't use regularly, you'll pay extra for it.

It wont make anyone better but it's easier to pop into them for sure. If people didnt use these new angles everyone would still be riding 74 hts and a 14.25 slammed cs.

But they aren't welded and built to your own specifications. They're welded to your selected specifications going by s&ms available guideline. Theres limits to what you can do with YOUR custom frame. Which isn't a true custom frame. If you wanted a 77 ht, 12.25, 12 bb, 5" standover laird frame I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. S&ms are just a stock aftermarket frame they have and you can slightly alter the geometry by a little and pay an outrageous price for it. Same with bars. You can't even shorten the width or height on the bars.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/4/2018 5:25 PM

So I pretty much made up my mind (keep the convo going though because I'm finding the opinions interesting). I gonna go with Laird. As bad as I want to go with FBM, I want my Tiseo frame even more.

I looked for places that do laser cutting and anything close to it and nothing in New Orleans does it. Plus I'll already be paying 5 something for a frame and them most likely another 100 to get that done. Laird does it free.

As far as the S&M debate, it comes down the the length of the customs. If I wanted a Tallboy but wanted it in my specs, I would do it in a heartbeat. Especially since it's still going in Charlies pocket. But I want the seatstay bridge customed so... yeah.

As far as specs, I go by what has been comfy to me in my years of riding. I like a 21" with 75 HT & 71 STA because it's what all my frames have been in the last years. I can't remember what my Mirra 540 Flair was but everything after that had the standard 75 & 71. As far as BBH, I like it 11.5 because I run a loose chain. I noticed with my Skapegoat (11.75) the chain hits the bottom of the frame a lot. On the 11.5 it didn't seem to do it at all unless I landed hard af. The CSL I want at a 12.8 because I felt my mannys and pull ups were a lot better than with longer cs's. Even a 13.2 (on my skapegoat) makes it feel like I'm using more effort for the same hop height and mannys. The standover height I'm trying something new with. I want a 9 SOH because 10 seems too big but I heard a higher SOH helps with pinching the knees on the seat for bars.

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8/5/2018 1:58 AM

RonnieRawdawg wrote:

true and laird is also an old school hardcore guy so his convictions are strong. not to mention hes cheaper than everyone else too.

as for steve.

"steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea"

how can you make a statement like that without ever trying it.


grumpySteve wrote:

Because I tried 75.5 and didn't like it? Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals.

And the s&m frames are welded and built to your own specifications. They don't have a bunch of frames hanging up with random different geometry in the hope someone will buy one. You pick what you want, they cut, mitre and bend the tubes, then weld it together. Laird does the same, fbm does the same.
They all buy tubes in bulk, and make the frame out of them. If you want something they don't use regularly, you'll pay extra for it.

Four wrote:

It wont make anyone better but it's easier to pop into them for sure. If people didnt use these new angles everyone would still be riding 74 hts and a 14.25 slammed cs.

But they aren't welded and built to your own specifications. They're welded to your selected specifications going by s&ms available guideline. Theres limits to what you can do with YOUR custom frame. Which isn't a true custom frame. If you wanted a 77 ht, 12.25, 12 bb, 5" standover laird frame I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. S&ms are just a stock aftermarket frame they have and you can slightly alter the geometry by a little and pay an outrageous price for it. Same with bars. You can't even shorten the width or height on the bars.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Right now my dream frame would be my fbm geometry, with bullet capped stays. The cheapest and easiest way for me to do that is getting a custom credence ccr. Fbm would charge $55 dollars on top of normal custom price for the stays/dropouts, and laird would charge extra too I'd guess (because I doubt he stocks the stays and dropouts. Although I haven't looked into it because laird doesn't really appeal to me).
But the geometry I want is fairly basic. I only went custom with my frame because I wanted a 74.5 ha which no one offers on a frame that isn't aimed at trails. In hindsight the credence mod, or atf would've done the job just fine. But I also really wanted an fbm.

If you could get your desired spec on, let's say a dagger, then you'd be customising a dagger. But even fbm don't offer a ha steeper than 75.5. I'm sure s&m and fbm would do it if you called or emailed and asked though

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8/5/2018 9:49 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/5/2018 9:51 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

Because I tried 75.5 and didn't like it? Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals.

And the s&m frames are welded and built to your own specifications. They don't have a bunch of frames hanging up with random different geometry in the hope someone will buy one. You pick what you want, they cut, mitre and bend the tubes, then weld it together. Laird does the same, fbm does the same.
They all buy tubes in bulk, and make the frame out of them. If you want something they don't use regularly, you'll pay extra for it.

"Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals."

thats not the only reason ( i dont nose manual). theres plenty of reason to have a steeper HT. ever think maybe some of us bigger riders like our bikes to feel like smaller bikes. it really depends on your setup as well CS and stem reach play a huge part


longer tt = longer wheelbase. HTA can counter that........ all the 21.5 - 22" are all trail frames essentially.

shorter wheel base = better handling but less stability a high speed.

same way a CRX can take a corner way faster than an acura legend


and s&m frames are not 100% custom. just slight variations they change to already similar made frames so they dont have to change their jigs around. my fit hoodbirds welds aint the best theres even some pinholes in welds but idc because its in not important spots but still

laird is 100% custom.

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Lessons not learned in blood are soon forgotten

8/5/2018 10:59 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/5/2018 12:13 PM

RonnieRawdawg wrote:

true and laird is also an old school hardcore guy so his convictions are strong. not to mention hes cheaper than everyone else too.

as for steve.

"steeper than 76° headangle is just a bad idea"

how can you make a statement like that without ever trying it.


grumpySteve wrote:

Because I tried 75.5 and didn't like it? Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals.

And the s&m frames are welded and built to your own specifications. They don't have a bunch of frames hanging up with random different geometry in the hope someone will buy one. You pick what you want, they cut, mitre and bend the tubes, then weld it together. Laird does the same, fbm does the same.
They all buy tubes in bulk, and make the frame out of them. If you want something they don't use regularly, you'll pay extra for it.

RonnieRawdawg wrote:

"Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals."

thats not the only reason ( i dont nose manual). theres plenty of reason to have a steeper HT. ever think maybe some of us bigger riders like our bikes to feel like smaller bikes. it really depends on your setup as well CS and stem reach play a huge part


longer tt = longer wheelbase. HTA can counter that........ all the 21.5 - 22" are all trail frames essentially.

shorter wheel base = better handling but less stability a high speed.

same way a CRX can take a corner way faster than an acura legend


and s&m frames are not 100% custom. just slight variations they change to already similar made frames so they dont have to change their jigs around. my fit hoodbirds welds aint the best theres even some pinholes in welds but idc because its in not important spots but still

laird is 100% custom.

Of course they have to change the jig. Any change in the frame isn't standard, and becomes customised. If you want 1/4" shorter chainstays they have to cut, bend and mitre those tubes (chainstays, and seat stays) differently, and set the jig up accordingly.

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8/5/2018 11:03 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/5/2018 11:05 AM

Say I wanted a Larid Frame, and the geo was identical to say an S&M Tallboy, would that make the frame not custom? No, it's still a custom frame lol

Because S&M frames ARE CUSTOM. Period. You can take a frame, the S&M Tallboy for example, to be bent into the geo you want it, they still have to set up the tubes and weld it in the geo you want... it's a custom frame..

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I don't crash, I do random gravity checks...

8/5/2018 12:18 PM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

Say I wanted a Larid Frame, and the geo was identical to say an S&M Tallboy, would that make the frame not custom? No, it's still a custom frame lol

Because S&M frames ARE CUSTOM. Period. You can take a frame, the S&M Tallboy for example, to be bent into the geo you want it, they still have to set up the tubes and weld it in the geo you want... it's a custom frame..

IMO anything that is not set up to be produced in numbers larger than 1 is a custom

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Hmmm

8/5/2018 12:38 PM

do people really struggle to get into nose wheelies? I mean if you're super new to riding, I get it.

I have never had an issue with getting into nose wheelies. Staying in them? different story.. haha.

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8/5/2018 12:58 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

Because I tried 75.5 and didn't like it? Ever increasing headangles aren't going to make anyone better at nose manuals.

And the s&m frames are welded and built to your own specifications. They don't have a bunch of frames hanging up with random different geometry in the hope someone will buy one. You pick what you want, they cut, mitre and bend the tubes, then weld it together. Laird does the same, fbm does the same.
They all buy tubes in bulk, and make the frame out of them. If you want something they don't use regularly, you'll pay extra for it.

Four wrote:

It wont make anyone better but it's easier to pop into them for sure. If people didnt use these new angles everyone would still be riding 74 hts and a 14.25 slammed cs.

But they aren't welded and built to your own specifications. They're welded to your selected specifications going by s&ms available guideline. Theres limits to what you can do with YOUR custom frame. Which isn't a true custom frame. If you wanted a 77 ht, 12.25, 12 bb, 5" standover laird frame I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. S&ms are just a stock aftermarket frame they have and you can slightly alter the geometry by a little and pay an outrageous price for it. Same with bars. You can't even shorten the width or height on the bars.

grumpySteve wrote:

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Right now my dream frame would be my fbm geometry, with bullet capped stays. The cheapest and easiest way for me to do that is getting a custom credence ccr. Fbm would charge $55 dollars on top of normal custom price for the stays/dropouts, and laird would charge extra too I'd guess (because I doubt he stocks the stays and dropouts. Although I haven't looked into it because laird doesn't really appeal to me).
But the geometry I want is fairly basic. I only went custom with my frame because I wanted a 74.5 ha which no one offers on a frame that isn't aimed at trails. In hindsight the credence mod, or atf would've done the job just fine. But I also really wanted an fbm.

If you could get your desired spec on, let's say a dagger, then you'd be customising a dagger. But even fbm don't offer a ha steeper than 75.5. I'm sure s&m and fbm would do it if you called or emailed and asked though

Yes to each their own. I haven't looked too much into custom fbms. But imo laird is on top of the game. Lightest frames, no geo limits, cheapest price and any color and can even do titanium. I like the idea of a completely custom frame for you. Not just a catalog frame with slight mods.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/5/2018 1:04 PM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

Say I wanted a Larid Frame, and the geo was identical to say an S&M Tallboy, would that make the frame not custom? No, it's still a custom frame lol

Because S&M frames ARE CUSTOM. Period. You can take a frame, the S&M Tallboy for example, to be bent into the geo you want it, they still have to set up the tubes and weld it in the geo you want... it's a custom frame..

The laird would be custom because it's not a catalog model regardless of the geometry. It's a frame built to your specs.

The reason I say the s&m isn't custom because it's an already existing aftermarket frame that you can make slight modifications to the geo. So it's basically just an altered frame some of then you cant even lower the standover. They wont take whatever geo you want and make it. You can select out of their options and that's that. If anything it's a shitty custom template you can use to modify a frame. But not a true 100% custom frame.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/5/2018 1:27 PM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

Say I wanted a Larid Frame, and the geo was identical to say an S&M Tallboy, would that make the frame not custom? No, it's still a custom frame lol

Because S&M frames ARE CUSTOM. Period. You can take a frame, the S&M Tallboy for example, to be bent into the geo you want it, they still have to set up the tubes and weld it in the geo you want... it's a custom frame..

Four wrote:

The laird would be custom because it's not a catalog model regardless of the geometry. It's a frame built to your specs.

The reason I say the s&m isn't custom because it's an already existing aftermarket frame that you can make slight modifications to the geo. So it's basically just an altered frame some of then you cant even lower the standover. They wont take whatever geo you want and make it. You can select out of their options and that's that. If anything it's a shitty custom template you can use to modify a frame. But not a true 100% custom frame.

I get your point. But you should contact s&m and ask if they'll do anything different. Fbm will, laird certainly will, so I'd be surprised if they don't. Just because 76ha isn't listed doesn't mean they won't do it if you ask.

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8/5/2018 1:33 PM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

Say I wanted a Larid Frame, and the geo was identical to say an S&M Tallboy, would that make the frame not custom? No, it's still a custom frame lol

Because S&M frames ARE CUSTOM. Period. You can take a frame, the S&M Tallboy for example, to be bent into the geo you want it, they still have to set up the tubes and weld it in the geo you want... it's a custom frame..

Four wrote:

The laird would be custom because it's not a catalog model regardless of the geometry. It's a frame built to your specs.

The reason I say the s&m isn't custom because it's an already existing aftermarket frame that you can make slight modifications to the geo. So it's basically just an altered frame some of then you cant even lower the standover. They wont take whatever geo you want and make it. You can select out of their options and that's that. If anything it's a shitty custom template you can use to modify a frame. But not a true 100% custom frame.

I mean if you go to Mike Larid and say, "hey, I would like S&M Tallboy geo with 13" chainstays." That would be a custom frame to you? And if you go to S&M and want a Tallbiy with 13" chainstay that's not custom?

I dont really understand what you're saying...

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I don't crash, I do random gravity checks...

8/5/2018 1:57 PM

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

I mean if you go to Mike Larid and say, "hey, I would like S&M Tallboy geo with 13" chainstays." That would be a custom frame to you? And if you go to S&M and want a Tallbiy with 13" chainstay that's not custom?

I dont really understand what you're saying...

Because the laird frame is a custom frame made by mike laird. If you choose that same geometry its still a custom frame. The s&m is simply just an s&m with a shortened chainstay. It's still the same aftermarket frame that's just been modified. It's not a true custom

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/5/2018 2:06 PM

Four wrote:

Because the laird frame is a custom frame made by mike laird. If you choose that same geometry its still a custom frame. The s&m is simply just an s&m with a shortened chainstay. It's still the same aftermarket frame that's just been modified. It's not a true custom

Photo
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I don't crash, I do random gravity checks...

8/5/2018 2:43 PM

Four wrote:

The laird would be custom because it's not a catalog model regardless of the geometry. It's a frame built to your specs.

The reason I say the s&m isn't custom because it's an already existing aftermarket frame that you can make slight modifications to the geo. So it's basically just an altered frame some of then you cant even lower the standover. They wont take whatever geo you want and make it. You can select out of their options and that's that. If anything it's a shitty custom template you can use to modify a frame. But not a true 100% custom frame.

HondaCRFRacer wrote:

I mean if you go to Mike Larid and say, "hey, I would like S&M Tallboy geo with 13" chainstays." That would be a custom frame to you? And if you go to S&M and want a Tallbiy with 13" chainstay that's not custom?

I dont really understand what you're saying...

Four wrote:

Because the laird frame is a custom frame made by mike laird. If you choose that same geometry its still a custom frame. The s&m is simply just an s&m with a shortened chainstay. It's still the same aftermarket frame that's just been modified. It's not a true custom

It's still custom, because you can't walk into a shop and pick one up off the shelf. It's literally a one off (unless by coincidence someone else chooses the exact same thing). In other industries they'd call it bespoke. You're customising an aftermarket frame.

Customise:
"to modify or build according to individual or personal specification or preference"
Whether you pick from a list of given specs, or type those specs in yourself, you're still choosing what you want. They're still building to your specifications. They're your specs if you choose them.

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8/5/2018 2:52 PM

I personally think there's different levels of custom. Though it might be minor, with Laird, you're able to do more than just geo. Custom SS Bridge & Titanium option. With FBM and S&M it's just geo, which is fine. I would put that in the realm of customizable which is still custom. Just not as in depth as Laird. Laird also doesn't do gussets like FBM so you can count that as a Unique thing for FBM.

S&M and FBM are customs. Just not what I want in a custom.

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8/5/2018 3:30 PM

HondaCRFRacer wrote: Photo

A true Custom frame- a frame welded to your exact specifications. Does not exist prior and has no limitation to what you want. It's your frame, like someone giving you a signature frame.

S&m "custom"- a modified version of their aftermarket frames. A frame that already exists that they've altered from the stock geometry of the frame that you selected from their available options.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/5/2018 3:35 PM

Four wrote:

Because the laird frame is a custom frame made by mike laird. If you choose that same geometry its still a custom frame. The s&m is simply just an s&m with a shortened chainstay. It's still the same aftermarket frame that's just been modified. It's not a true custom

HondaCRFRacer wrote: Photo

Four wrote:

A true Custom frame- a frame welded to your exact specifications. Does not exist prior and has no limitation to what you want. It's your frame, like someone giving you a signature frame.

S&m "custom"- a modified version of their aftermarket frames. A frame that already exists that they've altered from the stock geometry of the frame that you selected from their available options.

But they aren't altering a frame that's already been made. They make you a frame based on the geometry you chose. That's the definition of custom.

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