Which Custom Frame Builder

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8/5/2018 3:35 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

It's still custom, because you can't walk into a shop and pick one up off the shelf. It's literally a one off (unless by coincidence someone else chooses the exact same thing). In other industries they'd call it bespoke. You're customising an aftermarket frame.

Customise:
"to modify or build according to individual or personal specification or preference"
Whether you pick from a list of given specs, or type those specs in yourself, you're still choosing what you want. They're still building to your specifications. They're your specs if you choose them.

They're your specs that you've selected from their choices. There is limited options. It's not a true custom. It's a version of their aftermarket frame altered slightly to your specs. It's still an s&m atf or whatever frames they have available with specs altered slightly. It's not a real custom with no limits. If all you want is an existing s&m frame with a little bit more mellow headtube and longer cs for example it's still not fully custom and as far as custom builders go they're still the worst with pricing and options. You're paying for them to produce an altered version of their frame. At a ridiculous price

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8/5/2018 6:55 PM

Joe_Martinez wrote:

Just got my 2nd lairdframe today and love it. I also just got a custom fbm! Love both of them! Photo
Photo

Forgot to ask. What tubing did you do? I was gonna do 1.25 double butted on top and 1.38 double butted on the bottom.

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8/5/2018 6:55 PM

Ok, this shit is making no sense...

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I don't crash, I do random gravity checks...

8/6/2018 12:24 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2018 12:38 AM

Four wrote:

Because the laird frame is a custom frame made by mike laird. If you choose that same geometry its still a custom frame. The s&m is simply just an s&m with a shortened chainstay. It's still the same aftermarket frame that's just been modified. It's not a true custom

grumpySteve wrote:

It's still custom, because you can't walk into a shop and pick one up off the shelf. It's literally a one off (unless by coincidence someone else chooses the exact same thing). In other industries they'd call it bespoke. You're customising an aftermarket frame.

Customise:
"to modify or build according to individual or personal specification or preference"
Whether you pick from a list of given specs, or type those specs in yourself, you're still choosing what you want. They're still building to your specifications. They're your specs if you choose them.

Four wrote:

They're your specs that you've selected from their choices. There is limited options. It's not a true custom. It's a version of their aftermarket frame altered slightly to your specs. It's still an s&m atf or whatever frames they have available with specs altered slightly. It's not a real custom with no limits. If all you want is an existing s&m frame with a little bit more mellow headtube and longer cs for example it's still not fully custom and as far as custom builders go they're still the worst with pricing and options. You're paying for them to produce an altered version of their frame. At a ridiculous price

It would be a custom atf though, as it's not stock.

Let's go back to my earlier example. I want a frame exactly the same as mine (custom fbm) but with bullet capped stays. The cheapest way to do this is customising an s&m credence ccr. I could shorten the chainstay, make the bb higher, etc until it's the spec I want. It's no longer a trails frame, it becomes a frame with the same geometry as my current one. Fbm charge extra for bullet capped stays, laird doesn't have them as an option but could probably get them (at extra cost).
I'd be getting exactly what I want. It's not an off the shelf frame. It's custom. All be it, a customised credence ccr, but a custom non the less.
Just because they don't offer as many options doesn't make it not custom. I'm sure there's things even laird wouldn't do because it would be ludicrous to just make frames with whatever given spec. If you could pick literally anything, some frames would be unrideable and weaker. I can imagine some spoilt rich kid getting carried away and trying to order a frame with a 4" standover, 10" chainstays, 90° ha, etc. I'm pretty sure laird would convince them it's a bad idea, and wouldn't do it.

Edit. I get that you want a steeper ha, but other than that, what don't s&m offer (or have listed, as I'm sure they could do steeper ha if you asked)? Certain tiny changes won't make a noticeable difference. So there's no point in allowing people to choose a 13.136785197 Cs etc.

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8/6/2018 8:54 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

It's still custom, because you can't walk into a shop and pick one up off the shelf. It's literally a one off (unless by coincidence someone else chooses the exact same thing). In other industries they'd call it bespoke. You're customising an aftermarket frame.

Customise:
"to modify or build according to individual or personal specification or preference"
Whether you pick from a list of given specs, or type those specs in yourself, you're still choosing what you want. They're still building to your specifications. They're your specs if you choose them.

Four wrote:

They're your specs that you've selected from their choices. There is limited options. It's not a true custom. It's a version of their aftermarket frame altered slightly to your specs. It's still an s&m atf or whatever frames they have available with specs altered slightly. It's not a real custom with no limits. If all you want is an existing s&m frame with a little bit more mellow headtube and longer cs for example it's still not fully custom and as far as custom builders go they're still the worst with pricing and options. You're paying for them to produce an altered version of their frame. At a ridiculous price

grumpySteve wrote:

It would be a custom atf though, as it's not stock.

Let's go back to my earlier example. I want a frame exactly the same as mine (custom fbm) but with bullet capped stays. The cheapest way to do this is customising an s&m credence ccr. I could shorten the chainstay, make the bb higher, etc until it's the spec I want. It's no longer a trails frame, it becomes a frame with the same geometry as my current one. Fbm charge extra for bullet capped stays, laird doesn't have them as an option but could probably get them (at extra cost).
I'd be getting exactly what I want. It's not an off the shelf frame. It's custom. All be it, a customised credence ccr, but a custom non the less.
Just because they don't offer as many options doesn't make it not custom. I'm sure there's things even laird wouldn't do because it would be ludicrous to just make frames with whatever given spec. If you could pick literally anything, some frames would be unrideable and weaker. I can imagine some spoilt rich kid getting carried away and trying to order a frame with a 4" standover, 10" chainstays, 90° ha, etc. I'm pretty sure laird would convince them it's a bad idea, and wouldn't do it.

Edit. I get that you want a steeper ha, but other than that, what don't s&m offer (or have listed, as I'm sure they could do steeper ha if you asked)? Certain tiny changes won't make a noticeable difference. So there's no point in allowing people to choose a 13.136785197 Cs etc.

Exactly what you said, itll be a customized CCR not a real custom frame. A modified version of their frame.

S&ms options are so limited. If I were to get a custom frame I would want something very different. Infact I ride such a short frame a steep hta isnt needed. But they dont offer any way to lighten up the frame, lower soh, the cs is limited as is the hta (no 12.25 or 76). You may be able to modify an existing frame they have and it work. But as far as a custom frsme builder they have the worst options and worst pricing. Laird can do an affix gyro, modify the seat tube for brakes etc. Granted these cost extra as they should, they're more complex features. His frames are also much lighter and still strong or you can use the thicker tubing and I'm sure it will be heavier. S&ms "customs" are literally just an s&m frame that you can mess around with the hta, bb and cs length slightly and they charge a ridiculous amount for it.

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8/6/2018 9:03 AM

A custom ccr is a custom ccr. A custom laird is a custom laird. Without talking to s&m to see what they'll do, you shouldn't be saying they don't (or won't) do it. And I struggle to believe laird frames are that much lighter. S&m and laird use thermlx tubing. So the only way it can be lighter is by using less material. And we all know what that means.

Customising a frame makes it custom. No matter how you look at it. It's a one off. There's not one the same.

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8/6/2018 9:18 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

A custom ccr is a custom ccr. A custom laird is a custom laird. Without talking to s&m to see what they'll do, you shouldn't be saying they don't (or won't) do it. And I struggle to believe laird frames are that much lighter. S&m and laird use thermlx tubing. So the only way it can be lighter is by using less material. And we all know what that means.

Customising a frame makes it custom. No matter how you look at it. It's a one off. There's not one the same.

Exactly.

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I don't crash, I do random gravity checks...

8/6/2018 11:09 AM

grumpySteve wrote:

A custom ccr is a custom ccr. A custom laird is a custom laird. Without talking to s&m to see what they'll do, you shouldn't be saying they don't (or won't) do it. And I struggle to believe laird frames are that much lighter. S&m and laird use thermlx tubing. So the only way it can be lighter is by using less material. And we all know what that means.

Customising a frame makes it custom. No matter how you look at it. It's a one off. There's not one the same.

It's a modified aftermarket frame. It's still a ccr with slightly altered angles. Not a true custom. The lairds usually come in at around 4lbs to 4.5lbs. Dhers frsme was 3lbs and some off ounces.S&m is usually just under 5 or over. I'm going off their website and what is listed. I doubt they offer much flexibility in that but I'm not going based on what ifs just what they have.And that's like saying if I shorten my cs by grinding it out or cutting my seat tube for a wedge it's a custom frame. Its altered. Theres not one like it but its still an already existing frame. They're not true custom frames. You can alter an already existing frame but it's not a fully custom frame. The options and geo are limited. Like most of the s&m products their "customs" are overpriced for what they are

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8/6/2018 11:44 AM

I think there is a slight difference on how people define the word "custom". As a craftsman I'd say anything that requires any kind of alteration to the design is a custom because it is "custom made" to the customer's wishes. I do understand the more strict interpretation as well, but I'd still tell a customer of mine that the product is custom made if I had to do any changes to the design, no matter how small.

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8/6/2018 12:17 PM

Aight. Need an opinion real quick. I need to know what size tubes and should i get them both double butted or straight.

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8/6/2018 12:22 PM

WiteMic wrote:

Aight. Need an opinion real quick. I need to know what size tubes and should i get them both double butted or straight.

The thicker tube and straight will be heavier and stronger

The smaller size and butted will be lighter

So really it's up to you and your style of riding

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/6/2018 1:17 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

A custom ccr is a custom ccr. A custom laird is a custom laird. Without talking to s&m to see what they'll do, you shouldn't be saying they don't (or won't) do it. And I struggle to believe laird frames are that much lighter. S&m and laird use thermlx tubing. So the only way it can be lighter is by using less material. And we all know what that means.

Customising a frame makes it custom. No matter how you look at it. It's a one off. There's not one the same.

Four wrote:

It's a modified aftermarket frame. It's still a ccr with slightly altered angles. Not a true custom. The lairds usually come in at around 4lbs to 4.5lbs. Dhers frsme was 3lbs and some off ounces.S&m is usually just under 5 or over. I'm going off their website and what is listed. I doubt they offer much flexibility in that but I'm not going based on what ifs just what they have.And that's like saying if I shorten my cs by grinding it out or cutting my seat tube for a wedge it's a custom frame. Its altered. Theres not one like it but its still an already existing frame. They're not true custom frames. You can alter an already existing frame but it's not a fully custom frame. The options and geo are limited. Like most of the s&m products their "customs" are overpriced for what they are

Wow. If you grind out your dropouts it becomes modified. S&m don't have pre made frames hanging up, then modify them with a grinder and call it a custom. Let's say s&m did offer the geometry you want (which they probably will if you ask), and you bought one, would you not call it your custom frame? Is my frame not custom because fbm already had the tubes laying around?

Let's just pretend s&m list their customs differently. They have literally just a list of everything they offer. If I pick what I want from that long long list, would it then be custom? After all, if it was laid out like that, they'd have a lot more options than any other frame builder. If I called them without even looking at their site, and gave them my list of requirements, would it then be custom?

No matter what you pick, they still select the tubing, cut it, bend it, and mitre it. Set it up in the jig, tack it, then weld it, using the specs you've given them. It's not part of their normal production line.

It's a custom frame. It's no different from the limitations you'd have on lairds site. All laird frames are just modified laird frames because he doesn't offer bullet capped stays. Or a wishbone. Or an intrikat style gusset. Or custom gussets. Or double toptubes......... I could go on with that list. It's the same, just different.

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8/6/2018 1:31 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2018 1:33 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

A custom ccr is a custom ccr. A custom laird is a custom laird. Without talking to s&m to see what they'll do, you shouldn't be saying they don't (or won't) do it. And I struggle to believe laird frames are that much lighter. S&m and laird use thermlx tubing. So the only way it can be lighter is by using less material. And we all know what that means.

Customising a frame makes it custom. No matter how you look at it. It's a one off. There's not one the same.

Four wrote:

It's a modified aftermarket frame. It's still a ccr with slightly altered angles. Not a true custom. The lairds usually come in at around 4lbs to 4.5lbs. Dhers frsme was 3lbs and some off ounces.S&m is usually just under 5 or over. I'm going off their website and what is listed. I doubt they offer much flexibility in that but I'm not going based on what ifs just what they have.And that's like saying if I shorten my cs by grinding it out or cutting my seat tube for a wedge it's a custom frame. Its altered. Theres not one like it but its still an already existing frame. They're not true custom frames. You can alter an already existing frame but it's not a fully custom frame. The options and geo are limited. Like most of the s&m products their "customs" are overpriced for what they are

grumpySteve wrote:

Wow. If you grind out your dropouts it becomes modified. S&m don't have pre made frames hanging up, then modify them with a grinder and call it a custom. Let's say s&m did offer the geometry you want (which they probably will if you ask), and you bought one, would you not call it your custom frame? Is my frame not custom because fbm already had the tubes laying around?

Let's just pretend s&m list their customs differently. They have literally just a list of everything they offer. If I pick what I want from that long long list, would it then be custom? After all, if it was laid out like that, they'd have a lot more options than any other frame builder. If I called them without even looking at their site, and gave them my list of requirements, would it then be custom?

No matter what you pick, they still select the tubing, cut it, bend it, and mitre it. Set it up in the jig, tack it, then weld it, using the specs you've given them. It's not part of their normal production line.

It's a custom frame. It's no different from the limitations you'd have on lairds site. All laird frames are just modified laird frames because he doesn't offer bullet capped stays. Or a wishbone. Or an intrikat style gusset. Or custom gussets. Or double toptubes......... I could go on with that list. It's the same, just different.

If I bought an s&m atf for example with my specs it's still not custom its a modified s&m atf. Not a real custom.

If its not a specific model and you call and give them your list of specs and they weld it up then it's a fully custom frame. But that isnt how it is so it isnt really valid. So they have the least options available to my knowledge and most limited custom frames and bars. For the worst price.

Laird is still the way to go. Much better options and pricing. There are no laird aftermarket frames that you alter. They're all custom made for you. He doesn't have a line of frames.

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8/6/2018 1:42 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2018 1:45 PM

Four wrote:

It's a modified aftermarket frame. It's still a ccr with slightly altered angles. Not a true custom. The lairds usually come in at around 4lbs to 4.5lbs. Dhers frsme was 3lbs and some off ounces.S&m is usually just under 5 or over. I'm going off their website and what is listed. I doubt they offer much flexibility in that but I'm not going based on what ifs just what they have.And that's like saying if I shorten my cs by grinding it out or cutting my seat tube for a wedge it's a custom frame. Its altered. Theres not one like it but its still an already existing frame. They're not true custom frames. You can alter an already existing frame but it's not a fully custom frame. The options and geo are limited. Like most of the s&m products their "customs" are overpriced for what they are

grumpySteve wrote:

Wow. If you grind out your dropouts it becomes modified. S&m don't have pre made frames hanging up, then modify them with a grinder and call it a custom. Let's say s&m did offer the geometry you want (which they probably will if you ask), and you bought one, would you not call it your custom frame? Is my frame not custom because fbm already had the tubes laying around?

Let's just pretend s&m list their customs differently. They have literally just a list of everything they offer. If I pick what I want from that long long list, would it then be custom? After all, if it was laid out like that, they'd have a lot more options than any other frame builder. If I called them without even looking at their site, and gave them my list of requirements, would it then be custom?

No matter what you pick, they still select the tubing, cut it, bend it, and mitre it. Set it up in the jig, tack it, then weld it, using the specs you've given them. It's not part of their normal production line.

It's a custom frame. It's no different from the limitations you'd have on lairds site. All laird frames are just modified laird frames because he doesn't offer bullet capped stays. Or a wishbone. Or an intrikat style gusset. Or custom gussets. Or double toptubes......... I could go on with that list. It's the same, just different.

Four wrote:

If I bought an s&m atf for example with my specs it's still not custom its a modified s&m atf. Not a real custom.

If its not a specific model and you call and give them your list of specs and they weld it up then it's a fully custom frame. But that isnt how it is so it isnt really valid. So they have the least options available to my knowledge and most limited custom frames and bars. For the worst price.

Laird is still the way to go. Much better options and pricing. There are no laird aftermarket frames that you alter. They're all custom made for you. He doesn't have a line of frames.

But laird doesn't offer bullet capped stays, so they're not real customs. I want my frame exactly how I want it, and it's only custom if I get what I want...........

If you actually look at all the different s&m frames, you'll see they quite obviously have more options. I'm going to call s&m, tell them what I want. Then I'll have my full custom s&m frame.......... Making things easier for customers is so outdated.

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8/6/2018 2:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2018 2:47 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

But laird doesn't offer bullet capped stays, so they're not real customs. I want my frame exactly how I want it, and it's only custom if I get what I want...........

If you actually look at all the different s&m frames, you'll see they quite obviously have more options. I'm going to call s&m, tell them what I want. Then I'll have my full custom s&m frame.......... Making things easier for customers is so outdated.

Bullet capped stays have nothing to do with geometry. S&m limits the actual geometry of the frame. The specs of your "custom" is determined by what already existing aftermarket frsme you selected. Which is a fairly stupid template.They have much less options. As you cant even go under 13 cs on most frames. And exactly. You dont have to make phone calls and try to communicate like that back and forth with laird. It's easy to use and simple. S&m is so limited it's hardly considered a custom. They by far have the worst custom options and price. The weight stays the same, standover etc. Its really overpriced for what it is like most of their products

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8/6/2018 3:27 PM

Four wrote:

If I bought an s&m atf for example with my specs it's still not custom its a modified s&m atf. Not a real custom.

If its not a specific model and you call and give them your list of specs and they weld it up then it's a fully custom frame. But that isnt how it is so it isnt really valid. So they have the least options available to my knowledge and most limited custom frames and bars. For the worst price.

Laird is still the way to go. Much better options and pricing. There are no laird aftermarket frames that you alter. They're all custom made for you. He doesn't have a line of frames.

grumpySteve wrote:

But laird doesn't offer bullet capped stays, so they're not real customs. I want my frame exactly how I want it, and it's only custom if I get what I want...........

If you actually look at all the different s&m frames, you'll see they quite obviously have more options. I'm going to call s&m, tell them what I want. Then I'll have my full custom s&m frame.......... Making things easier for customers is so outdated.

Four wrote:

Bullet capped stays have nothing to do with geometry. S&m limits the actual geometry of the frame. The specs of your "custom" is determined by what already existing aftermarket frsme you selected. Which is a fairly stupid template.They have much less options. As you cant even go under 13 cs on most frames. And exactly. You dont have to make phone calls and try to communicate like that back and forth with laird. It's easy to use and simple. S&m is so limited it's hardly considered a custom. They by far have the worst custom options and price. The weight stays the same, standover etc. Its really overpriced for what it is like most of their products

That's irrelevant. Bullet capped stays are still something that I definitely want on my next custom, they're the entire reason I'm considering another custom. Just like people have had custom frames with built in bash guards etc. Other brands are already doing short chainstays and steep headangles so it's not really pushing any boundaries. And I bet you're yet to actually ask if s&m would do those things....
And the weight is a rough estimate. You can't give a definite weight of a frame that hasn't been built. If you shorten the toptube and lower the standover, the frame will inherently have less material, therefore less weight. Plus the style of seat clamp and brake mounts etc will all have an effect on the overall weight.
S&m have more options when it comes to gusset style, headtube engraving, stays, bridges etc than anyone else (obvs laird does custom seat stay bridge, but he doesn't do those other things).
And a phone call or a few emails would actually be reassuring. I know I was extremely happy with the communication I had with John Lee. I certainly wouldn't want to order something like a custom frame online, then just wait for it to turn up. Having a discussion about what you want built with the people building it isn't a bad thing. I mean, look at how much time you've wasted just discussing this. Surely your time isn't that precious that you can't send an email.......

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8/6/2018 4:01 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2018 4:02 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

But laird doesn't offer bullet capped stays, so they're not real customs. I want my frame exactly how I want it, and it's only custom if I get what I want...........

If you actually look at all the different s&m frames, you'll see they quite obviously have more options. I'm going to call s&m, tell them what I want. Then I'll have my full custom s&m frame.......... Making things easier for customers is so outdated.

Four wrote:

Bullet capped stays have nothing to do with geometry. S&m limits the actual geometry of the frame. The specs of your "custom" is determined by what already existing aftermarket frsme you selected. Which is a fairly stupid template.They have much less options. As you cant even go under 13 cs on most frames. And exactly. You dont have to make phone calls and try to communicate like that back and forth with laird. It's easy to use and simple. S&m is so limited it's hardly considered a custom. They by far have the worst custom options and price. The weight stays the same, standover etc. Its really overpriced for what it is like most of their products

grumpySteve wrote:

That's irrelevant. Bullet capped stays are still something that I definitely want on my next custom, they're the entire reason I'm considering another custom. Just like people have had custom frames with built in bash guards etc. Other brands are already doing short chainstays and steep headangles so it's not really pushing any boundaries. And I bet you're yet to actually ask if s&m would do those things....
And the weight is a rough estimate. You can't give a definite weight of a frame that hasn't been built. If you shorten the toptube and lower the standover, the frame will inherently have less material, therefore less weight. Plus the style of seat clamp and brake mounts etc will all have an effect on the overall weight.
S&m have more options when it comes to gusset style, headtube engraving, stays, bridges etc than anyone else (obvs laird does custom seat stay bridge, but he doesn't do those other things).
And a phone call or a few emails would actually be reassuring. I know I was extremely happy with the communication I had with John Lee. I certainly wouldn't want to order something like a custom frame online, then just wait for it to turn up. Having a discussion about what you want built with the people building it isn't a bad thing. I mean, look at how much time you've wasted just discussing this. Surely your time isn't that precious that you can't send an email.......

That's not irrelevant. Just because a frame doesn't have bullet capped stays doesn't mean it isnt custom. It's just a cosmetic feature. Not saying you cant have certain geo on your frame. Also a short cs like 12.2 and 77 ht is pushing boundaries. A lot more than a headtube badge is. When a frames model is already picked out it doesn't mean its custom. You may be able to have it tailored to your specs but it isnt a brand new entirely custom frame. Those are more simple cosmetic features that effect almost nothing apart from the gusset. It doesn't matter how it looks if you cant select the geo you want. And as far as I know its just s&m engravings and such not custom. As far as calls and such go I dont like messing with that I want it to be simple and easy for me. And i have yet to ask s&m anything because quite frankly i have no interest in riding a custom s&m frame or their products in general.

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8/6/2018 4:12 PM

WiteMic wrote:

Aight. Need an opinion real quick. I need to know what size tubes and should i get them both double butted or straight.

What is "aight?" Custom word, built to your own specs I'm guessing.

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8/6/2018 7:09 PM

If anyone says anything past Standard, lifetime warranty. Or Laird, no long warranty but Mike stands for quality.

And I have rode FBMs, I have met and talked to Steve many times. Same with Moller at S&M. But, saying that you still get the best frame around and if anything happens you get a new one. I have had worse problems with everyone else around including Sunday and I currently have a Soundwave V2. It's just how it is. If a company is standing behind a product from day 1, vs the ones that play 20 questions if you have a problem...what company should you pick? Anyone should say the one that asks no questions and ships a frame (even custom) and all you do is return the broken one. And they cover shipping.

If Solid was still around that would be a great idea too.

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8/6/2018 7:28 PM

Four wrote:

Bullet capped stays have nothing to do with geometry. S&m limits the actual geometry of the frame. The specs of your "custom" is determined by what already existing aftermarket frsme you selected. Which is a fairly stupid template.They have much less options. As you cant even go under 13 cs on most frames. And exactly. You dont have to make phone calls and try to communicate like that back and forth with laird. It's easy to use and simple. S&m is so limited it's hardly considered a custom. They by far have the worst custom options and price. The weight stays the same, standover etc. Its really overpriced for what it is like most of their products

grumpySteve wrote:

That's irrelevant. Bullet capped stays are still something that I definitely want on my next custom, they're the entire reason I'm considering another custom. Just like people have had custom frames with built in bash guards etc. Other brands are already doing short chainstays and steep headangles so it's not really pushing any boundaries. And I bet you're yet to actually ask if s&m would do those things....
And the weight is a rough estimate. You can't give a definite weight of a frame that hasn't been built. If you shorten the toptube and lower the standover, the frame will inherently have less material, therefore less weight. Plus the style of seat clamp and brake mounts etc will all have an effect on the overall weight.
S&m have more options when it comes to gusset style, headtube engraving, stays, bridges etc than anyone else (obvs laird does custom seat stay bridge, but he doesn't do those other things).
And a phone call or a few emails would actually be reassuring. I know I was extremely happy with the communication I had with John Lee. I certainly wouldn't want to order something like a custom frame online, then just wait for it to turn up. Having a discussion about what you want built with the people building it isn't a bad thing. I mean, look at how much time you've wasted just discussing this. Surely your time isn't that precious that you can't send an email.......

Four wrote:

That's not irrelevant. Just because a frame doesn't have bullet capped stays doesn't mean it isnt custom. It's just a cosmetic feature. Not saying you cant have certain geo on your frame. Also a short cs like 12.2 and 77 ht is pushing boundaries. A lot more than a headtube badge is. When a frames model is already picked out it doesn't mean its custom. You may be able to have it tailored to your specs but it isnt a brand new entirely custom frame. Those are more simple cosmetic features that effect almost nothing apart from the gusset. It doesn't matter how it looks if you cant select the geo you want. And as far as I know its just s&m engravings and such not custom. As far as calls and such go I dont like messing with that I want it to be simple and easy for me. And i have yet to ask s&m anything because quite frankly i have no interest in riding a custom s&m frame or their products in general.

I know of a company that was doing that type geo. Not sure if he closed but the company was Brick House. Based in NY. I will look for the website, not to be confused with the other Bickhouse. Not sure if they made more than 5-7 frames...an that's ever. But, they were making angles like that with US BBs and press fit HS cups (not integrated).

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8/6/2018 10:10 PM

WiteMic wrote:

Aight. Need an opinion real quick. I need to know what size tubes and should i get them both double butted or straight.

Furyus George wrote:

What is "aight?" Custom word, built to your own specs I'm guessing.

You must be bored to look through the whole conversation here and comment on my Aight.

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8/6/2018 10:16 PM

Four wrote:

Bullet capped stays have nothing to do with geometry. S&m limits the actual geometry of the frame. The specs of your "custom" is determined by what already existing aftermarket frsme you selected. Which is a fairly stupid template.They have much less options. As you cant even go under 13 cs on most frames. And exactly. You dont have to make phone calls and try to communicate like that back and forth with laird. It's easy to use and simple. S&m is so limited it's hardly considered a custom. They by far have the worst custom options and price. The weight stays the same, standover etc. Its really overpriced for what it is like most of their products

grumpySteve wrote:

That's irrelevant. Bullet capped stays are still something that I definitely want on my next custom, they're the entire reason I'm considering another custom. Just like people have had custom frames with built in bash guards etc. Other brands are already doing short chainstays and steep headangles so it's not really pushing any boundaries. And I bet you're yet to actually ask if s&m would do those things....
And the weight is a rough estimate. You can't give a definite weight of a frame that hasn't been built. If you shorten the toptube and lower the standover, the frame will inherently have less material, therefore less weight. Plus the style of seat clamp and brake mounts etc will all have an effect on the overall weight.
S&m have more options when it comes to gusset style, headtube engraving, stays, bridges etc than anyone else (obvs laird does custom seat stay bridge, but he doesn't do those other things).
And a phone call or a few emails would actually be reassuring. I know I was extremely happy with the communication I had with John Lee. I certainly wouldn't want to order something like a custom frame online, then just wait for it to turn up. Having a discussion about what you want built with the people building it isn't a bad thing. I mean, look at how much time you've wasted just discussing this. Surely your time isn't that precious that you can't send an email.......

Four wrote:

That's not irrelevant. Just because a frame doesn't have bullet capped stays doesn't mean it isnt custom. It's just a cosmetic feature. Not saying you cant have certain geo on your frame. Also a short cs like 12.2 and 77 ht is pushing boundaries. A lot more than a headtube badge is. When a frames model is already picked out it doesn't mean its custom. You may be able to have it tailored to your specs but it isnt a brand new entirely custom frame. Those are more simple cosmetic features that effect almost nothing apart from the gusset. It doesn't matter how it looks if you cant select the geo you want. And as far as I know its just s&m engravings and such not custom. As far as calls and such go I dont like messing with that I want it to be simple and easy for me. And i have yet to ask s&m anything because quite frankly i have no interest in riding a custom s&m frame or their products in general.

But it's a feature I want, and other frame builders offer it.........
I know s&m are expensive. But if you wanted a custom road frame, or mtb, you'd be spending a lot more money.

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8/6/2018 10:25 PM

grumpySteve wrote:

But it's a feature I want, and other frame builders offer it.........
I know s&m are expensive. But if you wanted a custom road frame, or mtb, you'd be spending a lot more money.

Yes. I'm not saying it's wrong to want it. It's your frame. Their overall geometry is limited. You may be able to pick out of what they have to make a frame you like but overall when it comes to customs they're way behind and pretty generic.

But I'm buying a bmx frame not mtb or road. Quality wise i could get a frame that's just as good if not better much cheaper. For as overpriced as they are their frames dont even come with mounts.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/6/2018 10:26 PM

Gack2000 wrote:

I know of a company that was doing that type geo. Not sure if he closed but the company was Brick House. Based in NY. I will look for the website, not to be confused with the other Bickhouse. Not sure if they made more than 5-7 frames...an that's ever. But, they were making angles like that with US BBs and press fit HS cups (not integrated).

That's pretty cool, I know in flatland the shorter cs isnt new. I'm always interested in seeing progressive stuff whether it be geo or weight etc.

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45 refs and counting check profile.

8/7/2018 6:46 AM

This thread doesn't seem to be going too well.

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8/7/2018 4:31 PM

Get a Laird frame mane.
They'll make you a custom frame and you can design your own seat stay bridge. I personally want a weed leaf back there, It would fit nicely.

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8/7/2018 6:19 PM

I saw complaints about PDC a ways up, and thought I'd counter with some good experience. A friend of mine managed to kink the downtube on one of Dave's frames by nose casing a 30' double (at Jeremy Ball's spot). Dave's welds survived the wreck unscathed, and he replaced the frame for free despite there being no apparent issue with his actual work, and the fact that the frame was damaged in a horrible crash. Just one experience obviously, but at least in this case PDC went well beyond anything I would expect from a custom builder.

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8/7/2018 6:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/7/2018 6:45 PM

I had a custom fbm that lasted me 6 years. I'd go with them personally. And I'm on my second custom from them now.

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Maintenance guy at The Railyard Bike Park in Rogers, Arkansas

facebook.com/TheRailyardAR/
Insta @the_railyard

facebook.com/tedhuie
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8/7/2018 9:30 PM

Spongeworthy wrote:

This thread doesn't seem to be going too well.

LOL. Just a discussion among men.

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8/7/2018 9:33 PM

tedhuie wrote:

I had a custom fbm that lasted me 6 years. I'd go with them personally. And I'm on my second custom from them now.

I already decided on the Laird. Main reason is the custom seatstay bridge and he's doing internal tensioners for me. Already talked to Laird (Great fucking guy btw). FBM was the closest of seconds though. If John Lee would've said they could cut TISEO into the bridge, money would've been in their hands.

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