are the sunday darkwave and streetsweeper frames heat treated?

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9/9/2021 10:33 AM

Nowhere on the website or anywhere else clarifies whether the CrMo is heat-treated, they only say using Sundays 4130 Chromoly.

Was just curious because I know it's fully aftermarket but doesn't say it not even for the dropouts or headtube.

Is the darkwave frame heat-treated Chromoly?

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9/9/2021 10:51 AM

It isn't advertised as being post weld heat treated, so I'd assume it isn't. Probably to help keep costs down. I'm yet to see proof it makes a huge difference as long as the welds are good though. Post weld heat treating is more important on bars and forks due the bends

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9/9/2021 11:53 AM

i would think so but i know they aren't 41 thermal treated...not that i buy into that anyway but it's odd sunday doesn't do it for all of their products and only select products

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9/9/2021 12:13 PM

4Qbaked > 41thermal

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9/9/2021 1:12 PM

eskimojay wrote:

4Qbaked > 41thermal

They're literally the same thing, just different names to sound special. And it's only normalising, it doesn't make it stronger than the material itself, just takes away the haz

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9/9/2021 2:48 PM

eskimojay wrote:

4Qbaked > 41thermal

.pegless. wrote:

They're literally the same thing, just different names to sound special. And it's only normalising, it doesn't make it ...more

Is that the same with Easterns e3 welding process ?

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9/9/2021 3:54 PM

eskimojay wrote:

4Qbaked > 41thermal

.pegless. wrote:

They're literally the same thing, just different names to sound special. And it's only normalising, it doesn't make it ...more

eskimojay wrote:

Is that the same with Easterns e3 welding process ?

Nope, e3 is angling the edge of the mitre so there's a less perpendicular welding area

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9/9/2021 4:33 PM

.pegless. wrote:

They're literally the same thing, just different names to sound special. And it's only normalising, it doesn't make it ...more

Serious questions: I don’t understand...takes away the haze? Can you explain?

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9/9/2021 6:09 PM

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-the-heat-affected-zone

Its the area that gets hot whenever two pieces are wielded together. Failures often happen here.

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9/9/2021 6:19 PM

.pegless. wrote:

They're literally the same thing, just different names to sound special. And it's only normalising, it doesn't make it ...more

I'm not entirely doubting that, I'm sure they are more or less the same just with a fancy name, but has anyone ever released data on their heat treatment processes to confirm they're the same? or is all that just speculation? I ask because I always see people say "oh 41 Thermal, Deathproof, 4Q Baked, etc, they're all the same" but no one ever provides sources or anything, just the statement that they're the same.

@eskimo, Eastern's welding process isn't a heat treatment, just how they're welded.

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@OP, if I remember correctly, the Street Sweeper's predecessor the Broadcaster wasn't heat treated either, the idea was to cut costs down, so I'd assume they're doing the same for the Street Sweeper and the Darkwave as well. You could always email or call them to confirm it, but like pegless said typically if they don't say they're heat treated, they probably aren't.

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9/9/2021 6:43 PM

Companies have a myriad of procedures to choose from ; some will use pre or post heat treats, anneal, temper, and quench their products throughout the product's manufacturing process.

Some companies purchase heat treated, hardened tubing, while some will buy non heat treated depending on the final product details, among other things.

Often specific tubesets or material is chosen purposely to minimize issues from the HAZ in the weld process. Also, the characteristics of what you want in the final product can play a role in what type of treatment you need. The heat treat process is there to facilitate the outcome and the characteristic you want in that product's life. But it also a must as a step in a product's development in manufacturing of certain parts.

For instance, maybe your company finds it necessary to post heat treat the 2 piece bars because the process of bending and welding the cross bar weakens the setup. The bars were prone to bending on the curve leading to the handles.

So you decide to post heat treat to help slow the bending process from abuse, but change the characteristic of the metal, making it less resistant to bending but more prone to cracking.

Some riders can non post heat treated frames, others may destroy one in a couple months. Same goes with parts.

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9/9/2021 7:16 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/9/2021 7:18 PM

Been looking at eastern stuff latley , interesting to learn about welding techniques. Might give them a shot on my next bike , chrome grim reaper has me tempted to order a frame fork and bars. It’s getting hard to find chrome these days and I did love my guerra martyr frame.

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9/9/2021 7:24 PM

sundaybmxRR wrote:

I'm not entirely doubting that, I'm sure they are more or less the same just with a fancy name, but has anyone ever released ...more

Mind you, 4130 is used because of its quality, strength to weight ratio and the mere fact that is DOES NOT have to be heat treated post welded.

There are only so many ways to pre and post heat treat. Haha and I am only really including what type of furnace or quench is used be I suspect the companies are using these small details to differentiate themselves from the other companies' processes. If a company is post heat treating. They are heating it to a specific temp, then cooling or quenching it.

I say this because maybe my previous job's oven wouldnt heat the part evenly, small things like that. So there can be dicrepansies in the process. So i do believe one companies' process coule be better, and also some batches could be better than the other.

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9/9/2021 7:43 PM

Hmm...learn something new every day (I have zero welding experience). Thanks for the informative yet succinct link!

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9/9/2021 9:58 PM

I know my Soundwave frame is, so I'm assuming the Darkwave is too? They both cost over $400.00. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Darkwave has a lifetime warranty and the Street Sweeper is warranted for 3 years. You can always call the customer service number and ask them directly.

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9/9/2021 10:45 PM

4130 benefits quite a lot from being post weld heat treated. Don't think I've ever seen a frame not crack in the haz, and it isn't air hardening like some people claim. Welding 4130 is hot enough to remove pre weld heat treating, hence normalising it makes it stronger.
But again, yet to see proof it makes a huge difference as I've seen plenty of heat treated frames still crack near a weld.

It's just speculation on my part that they're the same. But I'm using the logic that you don't want it harder (more brittle). And I believe the frames are jigged (so they don't distort) then baked in an oven. It's much easier to jig a bunch of bars or forks, and the bends create a weaker point than the haz of a decent weld.
The cost/risk of quenching frames would be ludicrous.

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9/10/2021 10:46 AM

To be fair, the companies get away with using the term Heat treated. The term covers all thermal processes for the material. Pre and Post.

Smaller parts like bars and forks can be post heat treated easier. Companies like SandM will post heat treat their bars and forks tho.

- Quenching can be done with a liquid or gas. Normalising is similar to annealing, but is less controlled than annealing and typically faster. Both are forms of tempering the matierial by heating to a desired temp, allowing air to cool or quench the material. These procedures are used when a previous procedure has intentionally or unintentionally effected the properties of that metal.

- On certain higher end frames, Air hardened Aero space grade 4130 allows process of high heat TIG welding to be air cool hardened. Which yields great properties for a strong frame. There are other limiting and contributing factors to the metals' response from the weld process.

- Typically the weld itself will be the strongest point on the joint, the haz will be the area inwhich fails occur. On race car cages or tube(and aerospace) bracing and gussets are added to help around areas that would have a large HAZ.

Once again, the companies could be using the terms heat treated because they can, due to the above processes. And I'm not even covering how the tubesets are produced, whether it is drawn/ hot or cold rolled/seamless, seam welded etc. Subsequently, these process may need tempering or treatment for a variety of reasons.

For years I worked in Metal Factory. My dept fixed all the quenches, Ovens, Drawing Machines, Casting Machines, presses, cutters, milling machines and other metal manufacturing machines. We had to know the whole manufacturing process. I am no metallurgist by any means. We had those and engineers for that. But I can attest that many procedures can get fancy names, or fancy procedures and still get similar results of another process.

Obv different materials and types of tubing will have different procedures. But typically when there was a procedure done, and subsequent procedure must follow to keep certain properties or to regain certain property.

Surely the companies will use this as a selling point if it makes their product "better".

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9/11/2021 12:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/11/2021 12:21 PM

Vic707b wrote:

I know my Soundwave frame is, so I'm assuming the Darkwave is too? They both cost over $400.00. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the ...more

Honestly, I'm not sure if it is or isn't heat-treated, I don't think it is because if it was I believe they would state it in their description.

The darkwave frame does not have a lifetime warranty, the only darkwave thing that has a lifetime warranty is the FORK which uses 41thermal. I believe the warranty for the street sweeper and darkwave frames is the same.

I've heard a youtube who does reviews and mentioned that he thought the darkwave frame should have a lifetime warranty, but I think only 41thermal processed parts have a lifetime warranty.

Was just curious because here in Canada, the darkwave is the most expensive frame they sell at my local store, SHOPTHEBOILERROOM and they don't mention one heat-treated part, but other frames like the fit frames, WTP paradox, doomsayers, kink Williams, have heat-treated heat tubes, bottom brackets, and dropouts.

However, I still know the darkwave frame is strong and Sunday will gladly make exceptions for warranty so I'm not worried about that.

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9/11/2021 2:49 PM

Is the standard sta500 truely stronger than all is what I’m wondering ?

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9/12/2021 4:08 AM

eskimojay wrote:

Is the standard sta500 truely stronger than all is what I’m wondering ?

It's not stated, but I'd assume it's made from thermlx veriwall tubes. Probably not post weld heat treated, and the gusset will add strength from a structural perspective, but spreads the haz in a pretty local area so might not be as strong as a modern gusset. The pierced toptube will be stiffer. But I'd say claiming it is the strongest frame available is a very bold statement. It'll probably outlive the 40 something year old target audience that can only do fufanus though.

I saw someone rip the headtube off an sta back in the day, when it probably was the strongest frame at the time.

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9/16/2021 2:55 AM

Heat treated parts is a big deal, all brands will use it for advertising…. Any odyssey/Sunday if it’s heat treated, it will be “41thermo” and carries life time warranty, if price is same or similar? Always pick heat treated over non heat treated…

*never powder coat any heat treated parts!

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9/16/2021 3:06 AM

My supercross 4130 heat treated, made by tange… if you look at the raw finish.. the color is completely different than the typical raw finish you normally see, it’s very dark because it’s post heat treated

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9/16/2021 3:12 AM

This is my 100% seamless straight gauge tube fiction creature, (tange Japan are also all seamless tubes) the ht, bb, drop out are all heat treated & the stolen bmx parts I use such as bars, forks, cranks are all post heat treated…

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9/16/2021 10:48 AM

team3d wrote:

This is my 100% seamless straight gauge tube fiction creature, (tange Japan are also all seamless tubes) the ht, bb, drop out ...more

nice build shits clean

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9/18/2021 7:07 PM

team3d wrote:

This is my 100% seamless straight gauge tube fiction creature, (tange Japan are also all seamless tubes) the ht, bb, drop out ...more

Chumpy wrote:

nice build shits clean

Thanks

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9/18/2021 10:28 PM

team3d wrote:

This is my 100% seamless straight gauge tube fiction creature, (tange Japan are also all seamless tubes) the ht, bb, drop out ...more

Chumpy wrote:

nice build shits clean

Fr. I’m not a fan of fiction but damn that’s a clean build.

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9/19/2021 1:00 PM

team3d wrote:

My supercross 4130 heat treated, made by tange… if you look at the raw finish.. the color is completely different than the ...more

That is a thing of beauty.

Didnt Supercross design their stuff to be stiffer than the competition? They were into seamless air hardened double and triple butted tubesets for years. They were able to stiffen up the old rear triangles with multiple braces. And most likely used post weld heat treats to keep the over thr top stiffness.
Also with thinner butted tubing, it might have been a must to post weld heat treat.


Seamless superiority vs welded might not have such a large gap anymore. A couple of the largest tube suppliers are welding their tubes, it speeds the process up and they are making tubes just good as seamless. I do think one of the crutches, is that the Japanese and Chinese have larger manufacturing capabillities vs the Western world's suppliers.

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9/19/2021 1:15 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/19/2021 1:19 PM

eskimojay wrote:

Is the standard sta500 truely stronger than all is what I’m wondering ?

.pegless. wrote:

It's not stated, but I'd assume it's made from thermlx veriwall tubes. Probably not post weld heat treated, and the gusset ...more

Interesting …..When it comes to old man target audience I’d take a standard over a T1 any day , I always thought Joe Rich was over rated , when it comes to bike skills guys like Rick Moliterno and Rob Ridge are on another level

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9/19/2021 2:04 PM

eskimojay wrote:

Is the standard sta500 truely stronger than all is what I’m wondering ?

.pegless. wrote:

It's not stated, but I'd assume it's made from thermlx veriwall tubes. Probably not post weld heat treated, and the gusset ...more

eskimojay wrote:

Interesting …..When it comes to old man target audience I’d take a standard over a T1 any day , I always thought Joe Rich was ...more

Most people under 30 have probably never even heard of standard though. And the sta is practically a re issue of a frame that was popular in the 90's. T1 wasn't even a thing until after all the good riders left standard, allegedly due to dodgy business practices. 2 of them started T1 and another rode for them. I'm not questioning anyone's ability on a bike other than the kind of people that might be interested in buying the frames. I'd definitely think the sta is aimed at 40+ riders, regardless of the average age of anyone that buys T1. Kinda confused as to why anyone would bring T1 into this conversation with no real point to make?

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9/20/2021 9:04 PM

Chumpy wrote:

Nowhere on the website or anywhere else clarifies whether the CrMo is heat-treated, they only say using Sundays 4130 Chromoly. ...more

The answer is no…

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